Prefer the old Comanche to the new (Landing-Wise)

[Avio]

Have owned many A2A modules since FSX, and I have fond memories of the old P3D Comanche, which flares and lands very awesomely, every time consistently.

But the new MSFS Comanche, while quite a masterpiece, just doesn't feel like it handles landing right. I refer to the flaring to touchdown part. In the old module, I can come in quite slow, chop the power and glide to an easy and smooth nice flare for a main wheels touchdown followed by a slow gentle nose wheel down. But in the current version, doing that same sequence will end up having very sensitive elevator control that tend to oscillate the nose flare too much, ending in unsightly touchdown.

Tried coming in with a bit of power and the Comanche would tend to float forever down the runway (with quite a sensitive elevator still), sometimes ending in a 3-point touchdown.

Question is -- which is the more correct and more accurate modelling -- the old Comanche, or the newer MSFS Comanche? I flew the new one the first few days after purchase, left it untouched for many months, and while there has been a nice list of improvement patches since (thanks to A2A), I just tried the landing again 2 days ago and it still doesn't feel right (compared to the older one). Can anyone help point to me a video somewhere where someone did a nice landing? Preferably consistently. Can't seem to find that.

[BigT-65]

I agree with what you are experiencing. I also flew many hours in the P3D Version and was able to land much better than I do in the MSFS Comanche. But I don't know the answer to the situation.

[Brett_Henderson]

This relates to my - oft’ mentioned - concern…

… a tad too much lift when configured for landing, at/near and especially below approach speed (roundout/flare)… which might manifest as too much elevator authority.. floaty/twitchy, trying to get her to stop flying.. actually stall for touch down ?

[Bob Showalter]

Overall, in my personal experience, the MSFS2020 version seems to mesh with old P3D version in terms of landing behavior. Scott Gentile once said, "the Comanche is an easy airplane to land, but a difficult airplane to land well". There is a massive conspiracy behind the floating tendency at roundout above the runway: A long laminar wing, along with short squat landing gear that puts all the lifting bodies *ss-deep in ground effect during the flare are big culprits here. Also, with the Comanche in particular, it behooves one to be aware of landing weight and adjust approach speed accordingly, rather than coming in at 95 mph 100 percent of the time. Too fast on approach is probably the number one issue with floating.

Additionally, a laminar wing with a relaxed camber makes for a low-drag fast cruiser but a spoiled child during landing that requires extra attention. The trick is to round out above the runway and very delicately hold the aircraft off just enough to let it settle on the runway with enough lift component left to keep the process smooth. It takes practice and a lot of finagling with controller sensitivities to nail. Attempting to aggressively hold the nose up and doing a full stall landing with a laminar wing will result in a teeth rattling experience though. The laminar wing is either flying or it's not; there isn't much of gray area between flying and stalling, very much unlike say a Piper Cherokee with a hershey bar wing with it's beaucoup wing camber for slow speed performance.

Finally, controllers with a tight centering mechanism can exacerbate the problem as they require too much force to move out of center detent during sensitive maneuvers like landing flare. I'm using a Saitek Pro flight yoke which I modified to remove the default tight center detent and it works well with the Comanche. Again though, it takes PRACTICE to really nail landing the Comanche, and one has to accept that perfect buttery-smooth landings are naturally more uncommon with the Comanche but that the landings you do nail perfectly are all the more sweeter, lol.

[Nick - A2A]

For what it's worth guys, during the development and testing process of the MSFS Comanche, I made scores of landings with the new Comanche flight model as it evolved, from time to time jumping back into P3Dv5 to cross check with behaviour there. Whenever I did, I was always struck by how much more 'alive' the flight model feels in MSFS. Although the sense of inertia and weight felt pretty consistent to me across both platforms, I somehow got feeling that with the standalone flight model in MSFS, I had to fly the plane every single second through the approach and flare to a greater extent than in FSX/P3D. Anyway, the new flight model benefits not only from being able to use our own standalone physics, but also from lots of additional flight testing which Scott did in 29P.

I guess when comparing two completely different platforms, it's also important to work on getting controller sensitivity much the same, and here MSFS offers a bit more tunability. For example, I like to set 'reactivity' to 100% to eliminate any slight lag this setting introduces, but I also use a gentle sensitivity curve to flatten out the neutral portion a tad.

Anyway, back in 2015, I recorded a vid which I posted in this topic (this was before I was hired by A2A so I was a bit more impartial I guess ) where a few customers were complaining about oversensitive pitch control in the FSX version. Here's that vid.

FSX A2A Comanche - EGKA Landing

Following the comments here, figured I'd try to record a similar approach and landing in the MSFS version and here's the result.

MSFS A2A Comanche - EGKA Landing

Now, like the FSX landing, this one isn't perfect by any means (softer chirps are certainly obtainable) but hopefully it goes some way to showing pretty consistent behaviour between the two flight models in the different sims. However, I'd say you might need to be prepared to work a little harder for a good landing in MSFS, especially with real world weather.

Thanks,
Nick

[Ron Attwood]

However, I'd say you might need to be prepared to work a little harder for a good landing in MSFS, especially with real world weather.

Thanks,
Nick

I have to agree with that. Soft 'chirps' are there but you have to sneak up on them. They're not handed to you on a plate. I've also got into the habit (which I never had in P3D) of winding on a fistful of nose up trim on approach.

Ooo! Get me, talking like a real pilot.

[Capt. Timeter]

FSX A2A Comanche - EGKA Landing

I get "Access denied".

[Nick - A2A]

I get "Access denied".

Is that both vids or just the FSX one? They both should be public, i.e. anyone with the link can view.

Thanks,
Nick

[Capt. Timeter]

Is that both vids or just the FSX one?

Just the FSX one.

P.S.: tried again and it has worked.

[Bob Showalter]

One more thing I wanted to mention germane to this thread is that with Accusim 2.0, at least with my own setup (Saitek Pro Yoke), I actually have to calibrate my Saitek controller at the start of each Comanche spawn on the ramp or runway. By this I mean I have to pull and roll the yoke to maximum deflection on all axes several times in order to calibrate properly with Accusim. If I neglect to do this, yoke sensitivity is completely bonkers on the pitch axis and it's impossible to land properly. There is no formal procedure for controller calibration that I'm describing, but rather simply moving your controller to maximum deflection several times as I described before each flight (after you spawn the Comanche, not before!) For whatever reason, the Comanche/Accusim in MSFS2020 absolutely requires me to do this for the yoke to register properly at the beginning of a new spawn.

P3D never required this and I'm not ever sure why the MSFS2020 version of the Comanche does or whether this is only applicable for Saitek controllers. I hope this helps someone!

[Avio]

Okay so i have re-tuned my hotas reactivity to 100% and it feels better now. Maybe A2A could have indicated in manual advice on the recommended settings for all sensitivities? I also set X and Y sensitivities to both -20% and it seems to give good controls.

As for power management, whereas in P3D power could be chopped much earlier and glide in for a nice high nose flare and smooth touchdown, in the MSFS power needs to be reduced very gradually, idling only when just above rwy surface during flare. And if flared too nose high (like in P3D), there is almost always a slight jerk up of the nose just upon main wheels contact with ground, something not at all present in P3D.

Not sure if the current MSFS version models more closely with the real Comanche, or the P3D version, in this aspect.

[Nick - A2A]

As for power management, whereas in P3D power could be chopped much earlier and glide in for a nice high nose flare and smooth touchdown, in the MSFS power needs to be reduced very gradually, idling only when just above rwy surface during flare.

In MSFS, just as in P3D, you can pull the power completely at whatever altitude you see fit Avio, and still flare smoothly. There's certainly no need to keep any power in until just before touchdown, and if this is what you're doing, perhaps to try and 'cushion' the landing, it might be worth practicing some proper power off approaches and landings.

As Bob points out above, "it takes PRACTICE to really nail landing the Comanche". In the sim, we don't even necessarily have to fly full circuits, you can just make a touch and go then slew back out to your desired point on the approach.

Thanks,
Nick

[Bob Showalter]

As for power management, whereas in P3D power could be chopped much earlier and glide in for a nice high nose flare and smooth touchdown, in the MSFS power needs to be reduced very gradually, idling only when just above rwy surface during flare.

In MSFS, just as in P3D, you can pull the power completely at whatever altitude you see fit Avio, and still flare smoothly. There's certainly no need to keep any power in until just before touchdown, and if this is what you're doing, perhaps to try and 'cushion' the landing, it might be worth practicing some proper power off approaches and landings.

As Bob points out above, "it takes PRACTICE to really nail landing the Comanche". In the sim, we don't even necessarily have to fly full circuits, you can just make a touch and go then slew back out to your desired point on the approach.

Thanks,
Nick

The biggest tragedy in aviation is an airplane that's easy to fly and takes no effort to learn. If an experienced pilot describes an aircraft that's "easy to fly", it isn't a compliment. I remember a National Geographic documentary about Air Force One in which they interviewed the Chief Pilot, an Air Force Colonel, and asked him what is was like to fly the 747. He said is wasn't a "pilot's airplane" because it was easy to fly. It's wasn't a "fun" aircraft to fly in his words because it was easy to fly.

[t4ka78]

What we need here is Scott's tutorial video that is missing from the series, precisely the one about landings!!

[AKar]

I must say just one of many things I do like in MSFS Comanche is precisely that I did not like how it landed.

All too many "simulated" airplanes are watered down to be easily likable, their described real-world characters diluted beyond any recognition in reproduction. Not very many people like exercising pull-ups either when first made to do some.

-Esa