Civilian Mustang - too many issues to enjoy :( [RESOLVED]

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DHenriques_
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Re: Civilian Mustang - too many issues to enjoy :(

Post by DHenriques_ »

Nick M wrote:Thanks for retesting the rudder effectiveness sloppysmusic. Can't think of any obvious additional troubleshooting steps at this point, other than those which I believe you've already tried (i.e clean reinstall and deleting the *log.dat file.)
sloppysmusic wrote:Is there anyone here using FSX Steam Edition as well as me?
Yes, I use both the military and civilian P-51s in FSX-SE without any control problems. I also use FSUIPC and my hardware axes (Thrustmaster joystick and pedals) use the "send direct to FSUIPC Calibration" option which I see you use.

Hopefully we'll still get to the bottom of it... :?
CodyValkyrie wrote:The real Mustang indeed has a fully steerable tail wheel with 6 degrees of motion on each side (total of twelve degree arc) when the stick is centered or aft. Forward of that, the tail wheel becomes fully castored. In the development, as Ian and others have discussed, this posed a problem. The current simulation makes a bit of a compromise. The wheel will always act as castoring, however when centered or aft of centered, you have six degrees on each side, while forward it gives you the full range. At least, that's my current understanding of how this works, and what I observed while testing.
Thanks for the clarification on this Cody. Yes, that seems to fit in with what I've seen too. It would be useful if stuff like this made it into the POH as a footnote to the 'real' manual extracts. :wink:

Cheers,
Nick
Just an added note Nick as you are helping this person; The stick doesn't have to be held ALL the way back to accurate the 12 degree reduced steering arc. Just a little past neutral is all you need. In fact, in the real Mustang I never held the stick all the way back at power advance. Just a bit back is fine then allow the tail to come up naturally as the take off roll continues. Holding it all the way back puts the wing into ever higher angle of attack. You want to allow the wing to find it's natural flow with the relative wind.
Dudley Henriques

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CodyValkyrie
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Re: Civilian Mustang - too many issues to enjoy :(

Post by CodyValkyrie »

Of interest, to date I've never seen a simulation for FSX emulate this aircraft wheel feature because of limitations in the core engine. However, that may have changed with the Texan, but I'm not sure. Either way, the Texan wheel castoring and steering system is similar to what you might experience in real life, and functions quite well. It at least mimicked the steerability to a high degree, whether intentional or not. I know the team worked hard on the ground physics for that bird which broke significant ground. I've only seen one sim code this functionality properly, and it's not FSX or any of its derivatives.
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Re: Civilian Mustang - too many issues to enjoy :(

Post by CodyValkyrie »

DHenriquesA2A wrote:
Just an added note Nick as you are helping this person; The stick doesn't have to be held ALL the way back to accurate the 12 degree reduced steering arc. Just a little past neutral is all you need. In fact, in the real Mustang I never held the stick all the way back at power advance. Just a bit back is fine then allow the tail to come up naturally as the take off roll continues. Holding it all the way back puts the wing into ever higher angle of attack. You want to allow the wing to find it's natural flow with the relative wind.
Dudley Henriques
Dudley, I was thinking about this but didn't have the experience to give any authorative answer. All this talk about keeping the stick back had me thinking about my technique, and I don't recall ever holding the stick back. Even if I did, which I assuredly don't, my thought would be to quickly neutralize this during the run. The Mustang is NOT a plane you want to have a lot of power applied while at a high AOA, especially near the ground, as you've detailed in the past, and which so many unfortunate pilots have found out the hard way.

I remember another product advocating a feature that the plane dipped a wing during takeoff. All I could think was, "yes a feature, of a bad takeoff!"
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DHenriques_
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Re: Civilian Mustang - too many issues to enjoy :(

Post by DHenriques_ »

CodyValkyrie wrote:
DHenriquesA2A wrote:
Just an added note Nick as you are helping this person; The stick doesn't have to be held ALL the way back to accurate the 12 degree reduced steering arc. Just a little past neutral is all you need. In fact, in the real Mustang I never held the stick all the way back at power advance. Just a bit back is fine then allow the tail to come up naturally as the take off roll continues. Holding it all the way back puts the wing into ever higher angle of attack. You want to allow the wing to find it's natural flow with the relative wind.
Dudley Henriques
Dudley, I was thinking about this but didn't have the experience to give any authorative answer. All this talk about keeping the stick back had me thinking about my technique, and I don't recall ever holding the stick back. Even if I did, which I assuredly don't, my thought would be to quickly neutralize this during the run. The Mustang is NOT a plane you want to have a lot of power applied while at a high AOA, especially near the ground, as you've detailed in the past, and which so many unfortunate pilots have found out the hard way.

I remember another product advocating a feature that the plane dipped a wing during takeoff. All I could think was, "yes a feature, of a bad takeoff!"
That's right. Holding the stick way back can result in an early rotation and as you have correctly said, that can kill you quickly in the 51.
I actually have a major feature safety article running now in the P51 community both here in the states and in Europe on this (as well as additional) issues concerning take off and landing in the Mustang.
DH

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Re: Civilian Mustang - too many issues to enjoy :(

Post by CodyValkyrie »

sloppysmusic wrote:Thanks Cody. As we are nailing down exact behavior and expectations here I need to confirm something 100%. i could find it in a RW manual but I need to confirm what sim does.
No worries. Just trying to be helpful.
Are there any power lines, cables or hydraulics leading to the tail wheel? By 'steerable' are we talking as the plane exerts side forces, wheel turns to accommodate, more or less depending on the stick position?
If the plane (sim) was hung stationary off the ground inside a hanger would it be possible to turn/rotate/alter lateral position of tail wheel (with engine off no airflow)?
On the real aircraft, yes, as far as I'm aware. When the wheel is set aft, it becomes fully steerable, and there are cables or something running to the tail wheel which give you direct control over it's movement. I don't know the technical aspect of how this is accomplished, but it IS steerable. In the simulator, this does not work this way, as it is a compromise with how the FSX and its derivatives were coded. In the real world when you push the stick forward, it disengages and becomes fully castoring, much like the grocery wheel you described. This happens in the simulator as well.
I have always presumed they were like grocery trolley wheels, unpowered but lockable/castered.
When the stick is forward, it becomes full swiveling as described. The simulator, as a best option due to coding, works essentially like a castoring tail wheel, with a six degree lock (12 total) with stick aft, and fully castoring when forward.
If it is a passive wheel, then it could be that the wheel is just locked straight the whole time? have to check that video again cant remember see it ever turn. I know in the RealAir Spit I can see it swing around during taxi.

If wheel is locked straight, it would take a major force such as engine torque or considerable airflow around rudder to push the plane off track. As torque comes before airflow here its always gonna win.
Eh, I'm not fully qualified to answer this. It'll work as I described. That being said, try giving a burst of power with the rudder full right. If the simulation is acting correctly, it should initiate a right turn without any need for braking. I do this often when maneuvering on the ground, and to save my brakes.
We must be so close to diagnosing, if not fixing the problem.
Like you say, if others wish to discuss technique they may do so but could they pause until we figure out why the rudder inputs in my case are not transmitted into the simplane physics first?
For all we know it could be a combination of many things. Try giving a burst of power without brakes, with the rudder deflected to the right, like I mentioned, and let's see what happens.

RE: Dudley
I seem to recall this particular simulation being very sensitive to elevator input while on the ground (and in the air). The P-51 had a hellacious amount of elevator authority if I recall correctly. I also seem to recall having issues taking off when I did try to plant the stick in my lap, so to speak. This may be a contributing factor.
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Re: Civilian Mustang - too many issues to enjoy :(

Post by sloppysmusic »

"Try giving a burst of power without brakes, with the rudder deflected to the right, like I mentioned, and let's see what happens."

I just removed P51 entirely and reinstalled.

As I explained before, the rudder has no effect on ground or in air, but I did the test above as I remember using it myself in other tail draggers where the rudder has no problems to help taxi in the past.
So good test indeed!
Loaded plane up. Did test. No rudder as usual. Quick burst/long burst/low burst/high burst.
its hard for me now having to suffer this for a week to keep testing when I obviously know I have no rudder.
Recorded this in video below so you can see exactly what didn't happen yourself. Got Dudley's notes all printed out but cant use em of course as cant steer.

https://youtu.be/tRVH_JEyBuY

It will be finished processing by around 1030pm EST

I don't think there is any way to get this working without cutting and pasting configs from other working aircraft into this one. I feel i myself could get it working this way, but it would become some kind of unidentified mongrel half-breed plane.

Is there any point in trying the Military version? or is it exactly the same model? or the spitfire even?
i DO know that the two recent Comanche and Cherokee planes have been flawless and sublime in every single way, so this 'older' plane has put me right off anything that was
developed BEFORE FSX Steam came out.

I miss my Taildragger fix so bad. The RealAir Spitfire is great for looking at scenery and speed but the depth is not there after being spoiled with PMDG and A2A first 2 planes. Was looking at the Milviz Stuka today. Not a replacement really. I downloaded the manual for the Mustang 2 weeks before buying it.
I would have got the recent T6 but wanted something about twice as fast as the Comanche for longer tours of my OrbX scenery.

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Re: Civilian Mustang - too many issues to enjoy :(

Post by Molly - A2A »

I would say we should try to help you find and identify the culprit in your system that is causing this before you try other products that require a purchase. Sorry if I missed this previously, but have you tried disabling FSUIPC completely and running axis assignments directly through P3D?

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Re: Civilian Mustang - too many issues to enjoy :(

Post by sloppysmusic »

"I would say we should try to help you find and identify the culprit in your system that is causing this before you try other products that require a purchase. Sorry if I missed this previously, but have you tried disabling FSUIPC completely and running axis assignments directly through P3D?"

Yes I have. you might need to read the whole painful thread to get an idea of all that has been tried. It hasnt helped by some believing I dont know what a rudder does. Or that I am no good with it.
Or I 'cant handle' this plane.

Just loaded up a few of my other planes and oh what a joy to have the 3 main control surfaces working again! When you have simmed for 10 years in every type of aircraft from Scouts to the PMDG JS41/737/777 using rudder pedals having them suddenly missing is like losing a leg and being told to run. I cant! Yes you can its in your mind! Um no im looking at one leg!


Oh btw Im using FSX Steam Version. I have no rudder available in the Mustang. Animations work, no effect on plane on ground or air. There's even one video I posted here where I managed to get airborne sideways and during landing hitting hard rudder left and right NO slip movement NO yaw nothing.

I dont feel I could possibly have anything to lose by getting a refund on this and buying another, or swapping the license for another plane. I really want a fast taildragger badly that works on my sweet fast smooth perfect FSX build.

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Re: Civilian Mustang - too many issues to enjoy :(

Post by Jacques »

See, thats the thing that tears at me, the rudder is animated, but doesn't respond aerodynamically (or "frictionally"...for want of a better term...via the tailwheel on the ground- aside from braking). There has to be something really simple that we're all missing in diagnosing the problem.

Unfortunately, I'M fairly simple, so I haven't a clue what that might be.

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Re: Civilian Mustang - too many issues to enjoy :(

Post by sloppysmusic »

"See, thats the thing that tears at me, the rudder is animated, but doesn't respond aerodynamically (or "frictionally"...for want of a better term...via the tailwheel on the ground- aside from braking). There has to be something really simple that we're all missing in diagnosing the problem. "

Thank you SO much Jacques..for taking me seriously. you dont know how much that means to me!

"Unfortunately, I'M fairly simple, so I haven't a clue what that might be."

I dont believe that for 1 minute! The simple part I mean :D

As an EX=programmer, I know that the plane has to be waiting to receive a command/offset/binary instruction etc. The pedals are sending an instruction. The planes animation module is receiving it and making the rudder move plus pedals in cockpit. That instruction is not being received by the plane itself. Either somehow it is the wrong instruction, or something else is 'blocking/interfering' with it. Calibration will send the same instruction 'talk' value but a different degree. Variables/constants etc. Software calls a variable and assigns a value to it. The variable is NOT being called/received right here.
It is made much harder by the fact that EVERY other plane on my system works flawlessly. Including 2 x A2A planes. So it's not A2A coding per se.
I mentioned before in this thread I have a fully functional FSX machine as a backup. But Im not prepared to move the hardware to that machine because even if it works, it tells us nothing new.
We already know this plane works on a lot of other machines. I dont need to be persuaded of that...its why I got the darn thing in the first place was the glowing reviews and love for it!
Sigh...software is an alternate reality we cant take apart or visit without access to the original code/containers/procedure calls etc. FSX SDK could maybe disassemble it to some extent but that's definitely not adhering to the EULA. This is NOT open source software for sure and I respect that.

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Re: Civilian Mustang - too many issues to enjoy :(

Post by mallcott »

Sounds to me like the yaw damper is on - it may have been saved that way in the saved flight.

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Re: Civilian Mustang - too many issues to enjoy :(

Post by CodyValkyrie »

mallcott wrote:Sounds to me like the yaw damper is on - it may have been saved that way in the saved flight.
Oh. You might be onto something here. What is your default flight?
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Re: Civilian Mustang - too many issues to enjoy :(

Post by boozybaz »

I had similar problem with a Carenado a/c, It was the rudder trim I suggest looking at that and mapping a button to "centre rudder"

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Bal

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Re: Civilian Mustang - too many issues to enjoy :(

Post by sloppysmusic »

"Sounds to me like the yaw damper is on "

Interesting. I didnt even know it was an option in FSX itself. I know it's present in the NGX 737 as I often turn it off for manual circuits/touch and gos etc. It definitely makes a difference
when you turn it off in flight.

Just looked it up online. Shortkey Ctrl + D. Worth a try.
Not TOO optimistic as rudder works great in all the other planes, indeed was enjoying late flying around Milford Sound OrbX last night in the Cherokee. Lots of rudder required to land on those mountain strips.

BUT..agreed that plane is acting as if yaw damper is indeed 'on'.

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Re: Civilian Mustang - too many issues to enjoy :(

Post by sloppysmusic »

"Oh. You might be onto something here. What is your default flight?'"

FSX default C172 KDAB Active Runway. AS I am a fairly heavy user of PMDG planes as well, having to have a completely default C&D default flight is hammered into my brain.

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