A2A vs. DCS P-51

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DlefsDnal
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A2A vs. DCS P-51

Post by DlefsDnal »

Hello,

Not looking to start anything here but I was wondering if anyone who has flown both versions could compare them in an insightful manner? I am sure they are both quality products that is why I would love to get some opinions about strengths and weaknesses.

Let me say that I do not own either of these products because, while I am REALLY interested in them, the lack of a combat environment has prevented me from taking the leap. Yes, DCS is a combat sim but the lack of period weapons doesn't interest me. That being said I am starting to crumble and give in. I am leaning towards A2A because it just seems, from the outside, that they really care to "do it right". Also, the B-17 has been calling me forever. :wink:

Anyway just looking for someone with sticktime in each version.

Many thanks.

KaptajnKjuk
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Re: A2A vs. DCS P-51

Post by KaptajnKjuk »

Flown both, and the A2A is no considerations the better sim at the moment. The dcs one has some forces in a few features and also the combat enviroment for what it matters. But the part that separates them the most is the ground handling. The dcs one is practically uncontrollable on the ground, it gives little feedback, free castoring tailwheel is uncontrollable in turns, it is very unpredictable and ruddr authority is miniscule below 100mph. You have to anticipate movements on the takeoff run 10 seconds ahead. It took me 15-20 attempts to even get it off the grobund without dying :P

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Rusty Lock
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Re: A2A vs. DCS P-51

Post by Rusty Lock »

One has the use of the globe, the other a relatively claustrophobic ~125,000 square miles.
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DlefsDnal
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Re: A2A vs. DCS P-51

Post by DlefsDnal »

To be fair RUSTY LOCK, one may have use of the globe but nothing in that entire globe is shooting at you. I would rather have the hostile 125,000 square miles.

SUNDOWNER, do you know when it will come out of beta? Has there been any information on that?

I will try to find some videos on T.O./landing the DCS P-51 to see some of this control issue.

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Sundowner
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Re: A2A vs. DCS P-51

Post by Sundowner »

Sorry, don't know when it will be released.
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Bruce Hamilton
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Re: A2A vs. DCS P-51

Post by Bruce Hamilton »

DlefsDnal wrote:...one may have use of the globe but nothing in that entire globe is shooting at you.
FSX is a flight simulator, while DCS is a combat simulator. Can't compare apples to oranges. :wink:

DlefsDnal
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Re: A2A vs. DCS P-51

Post by DlefsDnal »

Bruce Hamilton wrote:
DlefsDnal wrote:...one may have use of the globe but nothing in that entire globe is shooting at you.
FSX is a flight simulator, while DCS is a combat simulator. Can't compare apples to oranges. :wink:
Thats why I want a compare between the apples part. The flight model and systems and such. But since DCS is still in beta it is tough to do right now.

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Re: A2A vs. DCS P-51

Post by Molly - A2A »

I just can't see enjoying the DCS P-51 in a modern combat environment at all. Until they develop a full WWII expansion, I have no interest in the DCS P-51. I'm sure it's a really well done sim (I have and enjoy Black Shark 2 and A-10C) but the anachronistic way they are doing things is too weird for me.

Therefore A2A is the warbird for me so I can take it on some beautiful sight seeing trips across the US. :)

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Chunk
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A2A vs. DCS P-51

Post by Chunk »

Having A-10C, I'm sure that the flight model is probably well done. I just don't think they can even come close to modeling the systems or feeling of the plane the way that Accu-Sim does. I'm not sure why they even did a warbird in the first place; unless they're planning on doing MANY more warbirds to fly against.
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guenseli
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Re: A2A vs. DCS P-51

Post by guenseli »

I have both and in my opinion you can (should) compare both.
These are two apples, however one is for eating, the other could be thrown on your head ... :wink:


Yep, the DCS is currently nearly uncontrolable at ground.

During flight there's also a serious lack of flightmodelling in my opinion.
I must say, that I'm no real pilot, and of course no P51 jockes.
But chasing each other with the A2A Mustang (against a real fighter pilot) is doable.

Trying the same maneuvers in DCS ends mostly up in a sudden high speed stall ... which is a big showstopper in dogfight.

And as we have Dudley as a real P51 pilot and several other pilots in development and testting for A2A, I trust the A2A flightmodel more.



However, the DCS is Beta ATM!

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Re: A2A vs. DCS P-51

Post by VulcanB2 »

I don't have the DCS P-51 bird, but the flight model is far superior to FSX in every regard. Given that DCS is developed by a company working very closely with The Fighter Collection, based at Duxford in the UK, who have several P-51s in their hangar and plenty of expertise to lend, I have no doubts that the DCS P-51 will be very accurate at release. To give an idea of accuracy, the A-10C sim was developed for the US ANG (Air National Guard) for A-10C familiarization and training. The flight model was no exception to that. Modern desktop flight sims (DCS, Falcon BMS) are now rivaling their multi-million dollar counterparts in flight dynamics and handling characteristics.

This is not to take away from the masterpiece that is the A2A P-51. Flight model aside, there is no reason why the A2A bird should not nail it. 8-) We must not overlook the limitations of the FSX flight model, as well as A2A are doing to overcome them.

Best regards,
Robin.
A2A/AccuSim. 'nuff said!

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Sundowner
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Re: A2A vs. DCS P-51

Post by Sundowner »

What limitations are you referring to ?
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VulcanB2
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Re: A2A vs. DCS P-51

Post by VulcanB2 »

Sundowner wrote:What limitations are you referring to ?
Wow... I did say A2A were overcoming them, right?

As far as FSX is concerned - go get some flight time in a real aircraft, then fly DCS and FSX and let me know. ;) FSX lacks the feel of flying. FSX doesn't even know what gravity is for a start! :roll: Take the FSX Extra 300 and just taxi it around, then stop. Here, it will inexplicably start yawing then roll over and crash without me touching it.

Accelerated stalls - FSX can't do this by default. The CFS flight model was more advanced - FSX got the dumb version. RIP CFS4. :cry:

FSX can't spin properly. Even with the best intentions, it is wrong on the entry, and not very good. Some aircraft just "fall out" of the spin which is wrong.

Stall the aircraft whilst pointing straight up and watch its behavior. Because FSX doesn't know what air is, it doesn't model aerodynamic flow over the wings. Because of this, when the flight model flies backwards (think tail slide) it goes horribly wrong. This is where you can get into the crazy spin of death, where the aircraft will actually fall upwards and gain altitude whilst tumbling wildly. :roll: If it knew which way was "up", it would at least fall in the right direction. ;)

I know with any sim if you push it hard enough you can get some crazy behavior, but because of the way FSX works, unless you are flying straight and level, just about none of its behaviors are correct.

Just look at the slip indicator and how screwed up that is. It is unusable for flying - its reactions are totally wrong. You can be in a slip and it will still be centered; conversely you can be parked on the ground and it will show a slip!! Two of us had that with the P-51 the other night.

Best regards,
Robin.
A2A/AccuSim. 'nuff said!

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Sundowner
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Re: A2A vs. DCS P-51

Post by Sundowner »

Hehehe, well... nobody knows what gravity really is ;) A force ? A property of matter ? Nobody knows ! :D

Seriously though, I've flown in many simulations, and the closest on in "feel" is the Condor, the second one in my book is the current BMS, and maybe Rise of Flight, everything else after these is pretty much the same stiff experience. Although remember that "feel" is subjective. I always found out that ED simulations had problems with negative velocities, any sudden departure appears to be binary. In FSX I don't know of a way one could model a rotorcraft, or vectored thrust engine on the stock engine... happily we can bypass it if the need comes.

And where it comes to feedback from pilots, I do have some experience in that field, and there is nothing further from the truth than saying "a pilot who fly the aircraft said it is ok" as a definite statement of how good a simulation is. I found out pilots fly by their... seat, not their eyes. Put them in front of a flight simulation and you rob them from all of the experience they have, and you have to point parts of the coding one by one, otherwise they will miss everything.

Sky is up, ground is down, pull the stick, and screen goes blue - yup it flies like the real thing alright ;)

What do count is experience in development, analytical mind that can remove itself from the overwhelming experience, and focus on individual parts, and then - formulate a coherent feedback, that software developer will understand. A2A is very lucky here to have Dudley Henriques, because he posses such unique skill set. That he have more hours in the P-51 cockpit than anyone alive is also a factor though ;)
Last edited by Sundowner on 14 Jun 2012, 10:48, edited 1 time in total.
Chris Oleksy
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VulcanB2
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Re: A2A vs. DCS P-51

Post by VulcanB2 »

I do have some experience in that field, and there is nothing further from the truth than saying "a pilot who fly the aircraft said it is ok" as a definite statement of how good a simulation is.
+1

What I meant was that if you pull the aircraft around in ways that aren't safe below 10000 ft :lol: most sims miss the mark in the way they react. FSX is in that category. DCS and BMS are significantly better (DCS feels scripted though very believable, whilst BMS uses physics and is excellent - no sim can fall into an inverted spin like BMS).

Best regards,
Robin.
A2A/AccuSim. 'nuff said!

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