Anyone else having trouble navigating purely with the RMI?

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300Blackout-A2A
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Anyone else having trouble navigating purely with the RMI?

Post by 300Blackout-A2A »

I'm still fairly new to flight simming and navigation, so perhaps there is something I'm not accounting for (or just plain doing wrong), but I noticed something weird tonight while attempting a cross-country flight this evening.

I decided to navigate purely by the instruments, and keep my use of the navigator panel to a minimum. However doing so kept leading way outside my flight path. Double checking with the Nav panel, it looked like the needles were consistently pointing 5-10 degrees off the true headings to the VORs (though they would correct themselves once I got very close).

I was wondering if anyone else was having troubles, or have noticed the needles not pointing directly to the VORs?

Anyway, here is a screenshot I took. Even though I'm almost directly on a straight flight path between the two VORs, the needle is pointing almost 10 degrees away.

Image

edit: spelling mistakes. hey it was late and I was very sleepy :)
Last edited by 300Blackout-A2A on 07 Jul 2011, 08:40, edited 1 time in total.

wothan
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Re: Anyone else having trouble navigating purely with the RM

Post by wothan »

Don´t forget to take wind direction and strength into account.

Even starting with no winds from Your departure airport - as You climb the windspeed will increase by altitude.

To learn more about navigation in FS look here:
http://www.navfltsm.addr.com/

FinnJ
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mattgn
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Re: Anyone else having trouble navigating purely with the RM

Post by mattgn »

Is this the first time you've had an issue like this, or is this a common problem?
I notice that it's the needle that represents the active NAV2 frequency that is pointing off. Was the frequency you had tuned for NAV2 the VOR you were heading directly towards? Or did you have the next VOR's freq' plugged into NAV1?
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MetaMarty
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Re: Anyone else having trouble navigating purely with the RM

Post by MetaMarty »

I had the same issue before, but found out that I had magnetic drift enabled in FS. If you have this option enabled, your heading indicator will drift over time. Press R to realign it with the real magnetic heading.

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300Blackout-A2A
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Re: Anyone else having trouble navigating purely with the RM

Post by 300Blackout-A2A »

wothan wrote:Don´t forget to take wind direction and strength into account.

Even starting with no winds from Your departure airport - as You climb the windspeed will increase by altitude.
Yep, I was taking wind into account. Also, I wasn't just blindly chasing the needle, I was trying to intercept a specific bearing,
To learn more about navigation in FS look here:
http://www.navfltsm.addr.com/
Yeah, love that site. That's what got me into navigation in the first place. :)
Is this the first time you've had an issue like this, or is this a common problem?
This is the only time I've ever noticed this. Of course I don't usually fly long range aircraft like the 377, so maybe the greater distances involved is part of my problem. And yeah, I was following the NAV 2 frequency in the screenshot. It was my next way point.

Thanks for taking the time to reply, guys. I'm just trying to figure out if I'm doing something wrong, or if there could possibly be a bug with the gauges.

VulcanB2
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Re: Anyone else having trouble navigating purely with the RM

Post by VulcanB2 »

Hi,

First, disable wind. If you can't follow the needle in zero wind then with wind is going to get a lot more interesting! :lol:

Second, you will need some math in order to compute things:

Drift correction angle:

You are flying heading 235. The wind is 130 at 7 kts. You have a tailwind from the left, but what correction do you require?

First, let us compute the winds.

235 - 130 = 105 degrees, so you have a tailwind from the left.

Tailwind component = cos(105) * 7 = -1.811 kts

Crosswind component = sin(105) * 7 = 6.76 kts

Let us assume you are at 5000 ft flying at 150 kts IAS. TAS = ~165 kts.

Ground speed is ~165 - (-1.811) = ~165 + 1.811 = ~166.811 kts.

The drift correction angle required is therefore:

arcsin(6.76 / 166.8 ) = 2.32 degrees to the left.

If the wind is over 180 degrees (e.g. you are flying 030 and the wind is 287):

1) 287 - 030 = 257

2) 360 - 257 = 103 degrees.

I suggest you pick up an E-6B if you want to really get into navigation with the 377. You should be within 1 nm of your waypoints when using dead-reckoning. You can quite easily navigate the Atlantic for example, and get to where you are going without any problems.

As you are using an inherently less accurate method of navigation, it will pay you to aim for landmarks on your routes, e.g. an island, so you can get a position fix, determine the winds, and correct any nav errors.

A good test I use to ensure I'm flying accurately is to fly from Heathrow on a loxodromic course to Schipol. If you get it right, you should overfly the main terminal building at Schipol. :D This is the accuracy you can fly with in FS, as long as your flying is accurate.

It takes practice. I had to fly the Schipol test flight about 7 times before I nailed it, but once I got it, flying long range was not a problem. Using the navigators map I could see the waypoint I was aiming for and how accurate I was flying. I was no more than 0.7 nm from any of my waypoints. :D

Flying VORs is quite easy once you know what you are trying to do.

Imagine a big string is attached from you to the beacon you are trying to fly to. String is attached to the pointer of the RMI (Radio Magnetic Indicator). It doesn't matter where you fly, or which way you are heading, the needle always points to the station.

Let us suppose the beacon is 100 nm due north of our position, and we are flying direct to that beacon. The needle will be pointing straight up on the RMI, and we will eventually arrive at the beacon.

Congratulations - you just flew your first VOR! By flying 360 degrees, we flew along the 180 radial TO the beacon. There is a deliberate mistake there...

Radials are the radio lines that eminate outwards from the VOR. They are configured such that there is one unique radial for each degree of the compass. The radial that starts at the beacon and heads due north is the 360 radial. The radial that starts at the beacon and heads due east is the 090 radial. The radial that starts at the beacon and heads due south is the 180 radial, etc.. Rinse and repeat for every degree.

Now, I wrote that we flew into the beacon on the 180 radial. This is incorrect. We were flying the 360 radial INBOUND to the VOR. If our instrument had a TO/FROM flag, it would be showing TO when set to 360. If we set 180 it would be showing FROM and operating in the opposite sense, sending us off course (unless we knew it was reversed then we could fly it accordingly but you are asking for problems).

As we approach the VOR with the TO flag showing, upon passing the station we first lose the signal, then the needle points DOWN (away) and the TO/FROM flag shows FROM. This is why it is important to set the correct course on the instrument, in order to get the correct indications.

With the RMI we don't have a course selector, simply a needle and a pointer. What we need to do is fly the aircraft so the needle is pointing TO the beacon, AND on the course that we want to fly to that beacon.

Let us assume we are due south, but we want to fly the 030 radial FROM the beacon.

There are two things we can do. One, fly direct to the beacon from our present position then turn to fly outbound on the 030 radial, or we can intercept the 030 radial INBOUND to the beacon. In order to get the aircraft flying the 030 radial, we need to turn to a heading of 300 degrees, so we are flying perpendicular to the 030 radial. As the needle pointing to the beacon starts to point towards 030, we start to turn towards the beacon, aiming to be flying 030 with the needle pointing straight up at the beacon, and also pointing at 030 on the RMI.

Once this is established, the aircraft heading needs to be corrected to allow for wind drift. If the aircraft is set up correctly, the needle will keep pointing up on 030.

If the needle starts pointing to the left, we need to overshoot the needle to the left, in order to "push" the head of the needle back towards 030 (the desired radial). Conversely, if it goes to the right, we need to overshoot the needle to the right to "push" the head of the needle back to 030.

If we are flying FROM the beacon on 030, and the tail of the needle starts pointing to the left :twisted: then we need to turn to the right. This has the effect of "pulling" the tail so it is pointing back at 030. Conversely, if the tail of the needle goes right, we need to overshoot the tail to the left to "pull" it back to 030.

Remember that all radials are magnetic, so remember to consider magnetic declination when flying (the radials are aligned to where the beacon is so 100 miles away changes things).

I found it was quite pronounced in the 377 that the radials are NOT straight lines (thanks to Oskar for highlighting why - obvious, but I missed it). You will find that your initial magnetic heading to the beacon is not the heading you find when you get to the beacon! :lol: Just make small corrections to stay on the radial. Remember also that the closer you get to the beacon, the more sensitive the needle, so don't chase it - you will lose.

I hope that makes sense! If you need drawings, let me know. I'm on the wrong computer at the moment to draw anything. :)

Best regards,
Robin.
Last edited by VulcanB2 on 07 Jul 2011, 09:36, edited 1 time in total.
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300Blackout-A2A
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Re: Anyone else having trouble navigating purely with the RM

Post by 300Blackout-A2A »

Thanks for replying, Robin. Yes, I know how to calculate WCA, and even dusted off my old graphing calculator from college to help me do just that.

My problem is with the RMI needle readings. I'm trying to figure out why they are pointing so far off the true course to the VOR. When using an RMI (that has no course setting) the needle should always point directly to the VOR, correct? I can see there being some variance at extreme ranges, but 10 degrees?

VulcanB2
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Re: Anyone else having trouble navigating purely with the RM

Post by VulcanB2 »

Radials are magnetic!! :)

I edited my post.

Best regards,
Robin.
A2A/AccuSim. 'nuff said!

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lonewulf47
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Re: Anyone else having trouble navigating purely with the RM

Post by lonewulf47 »

There's one thing that is often forgotten when navigating with an old ship like the B377 - and that's compass drift ! I don't know what area you have been flying in and how long already. The B377 has no slaved compass system. So your actual heading might become way off the the correct magnetic heading. Depending on the area you are in flying east-west or v.v. will move you through several degrees of declination (variation) change. This again will add to an erroneous heading. Furthermore there's another phenomen when using an RMI for VOR indication. Unlike pointing to an NDB (which is a Relative Bearing Indication) the VOR - even on a RMI - always reads the radial and shows it on the dial - which is by far not the same as an NDB bearing. Then again the magentic declination at the position of the VOR comes into play - unlike with the NDB where the magentic declination is initially not to be considered for the Relative Bearing. Depending again on the area where you fly in and the distance to the VOR your have tuned this may again add some degrees apparently "wrong" indication. In real life it's even worse: many of the VOR's station declination is wrong by several degrees because the VOR's have never been adjusted for several reasons - especially in the US. All this said a misalignment of +10° is easily possible. Btw: you don't need to do any wind calculations for a WCA - the ground track is always displayed as a grey dashed line one the Navigator's map :lol:
Oskar

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300Blackout-A2A
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Re: Anyone else having trouble navigating purely with the RM

Post by 300Blackout-A2A »

Ah, okay. I think I am starting to understand what I was doing wrong then. I was indeed treating the VOR as if it was an NDB, and was not taking into account declination.

I'll give it another try tonight and see if I can get to where I'm going without Control riding my ass the whole way. :)

Thanks to everyone who replied! I appreciate it!

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