Aircraft unusable - deleted

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alan CXA651
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Re: Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post alan CXA651 »

Hi jacques.
In FSXA the men are put on or off the tail in shift+3 as you stated , but i have also observed they disapear automatically if you taxi to fast or start your takeoff run , i dont have P3Dv4 but i would expect the same result.

Fortunjj.
Dont hold the brakes to increase throttle for takeoff , just slowly apply the throttle increase while danceing gently on the rudder to keep it pointing down the runway as she picks up speed, you will find it easier to keep her straight during the takeoff , and when the tail comes up , it is then very easy with better rudder control.
regards alan. 8)
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AviationAtWar
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Re: Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post AviationAtWar »

Jacques wrote: You release those guys via the menu after the checks are accomplished and then you takeoff!
Not me! I've forgotten those poor guys almost every single time! I usually remember them after takeoff but by then it's too late. I wish they wore chutes....

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WB_FlashOver
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Re: Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post WB_FlashOver »

fortunjj wrote:Might I ask WHY the sim would retain the state that the airplane was in before it was shut down (even if it was flying at full throttle at FL 100 at shutdown) when the scenario has been reset and the aircraft is now sitting on the runway? This is clearly an aircraft reset... X-Plane handles this correctly - when a flight is reset, the airplane is loaded in a default state that is not related to the state it was left in. I seem to be missing something with respect to why LM would design the sim to behave in a persistent way on a reset...
Among many other details of the A2A aircraft, the realism of finding my aircraft in the same state that I left it in is what Accu-Sim is all about. This is not a LM function but an A2A function. This is just one of the reasons I fly A2A. If I ruined my engine on the last flight I will find it still needing repairs on my next flight. Stock LM planes get the 'reset' that you mention. So, if you wish for your A2A aircraft to reset to a specific state with each spawn it will require exiting the sim in that state.

This may not be what you are looking for so maybe you will find some work-a-rounds to suit your needs.

Cheers
Roger
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fortunjj
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Re: Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post fortunjj »

WB_FlashOver wrote:
fortunjj wrote:Might I ask WHY the sim would retain the state that the airplane was in before it was shut down (even if it was flying at full throttle at FL 100 at shutdown) when the scenario has been reset and the aircraft is now sitting on the runway? This is clearly an aircraft reset... X-Plane handles this correctly - when a flight is reset, the airplane is loaded in a default state that is not related to the state it was left in. I seem to be missing something with respect to why LM would design the sim to behave in a persistent way on a reset...
Among many other details of the A2A aircraft, the realism of finding my aircraft in the same state that I left it in is what Accu-Sim is all about. This is not a LM function but an A2A function. This is just one of the reasons I fly A2A. If I ruined my engine on the last flight I will find it still needing repairs on my next flight. Stock LM planes get the 'reset' that you mention. So, if you wish for your A2A aircraft to reset to a specific state with each spawn it will require exiting the sim in that state.

This may not be what you are looking for so maybe you will find some work-a-rounds to suit your needs.

Cheers
Roger
Persistent damage or wear and tear is one thing... I would agree that adds the very realism that A2A aircraft are known for. However, this state is actually STATIC - i.e. the aircraft is damaged or worn out whether or not it is running or flying. The states that the aircraft go through while it is being piloted are transient. These transient conditions no longer exist once the aircraft is shut off. The transient conditions can modify the static state which models persistent damage, but there is no reason to maintain the transient condition the plane was left in at the end of the flight - particularly IF the operator of the sim wants to reset the aircraft to an idle state sitting on the runway.

At the moment, the biggest problem is that the aircraft seems to be in a largely indeterminant state when it is reset. I simply cannot figure out a procedure that will guarantee that the aircraft is stable when it is reset. As a result, I typically have to restart the sim at least 2 or 3 times and hope that one of these leaves the aircraft in a flyable state on startup. Once it is stable on startup, it is actually quite easy to get into the air.

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Nick - A2A
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Re: Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post Nick - A2A »

fortunjj wrote: I simply cannot figure out a procedure that will guarantee that the aircraft is stable when it is reset. As a result, I typically have to restart the sim at least 2 or 3 times and hope that one of these leaves the aircraft in a flyable state on startup.
How about the suggestions I made above fortunjj?
Nick - A2A wrote:There are a few ways to easily get round this issue if you prefer to use the sim in this way which is fine (e.g. end the flight just after take-off and then reload the flight on the runway with the engine running.)

For example, you could use the P3D "position freezer user" option (I assign this to Ctrl Shift P) or the slew option as you've noted to 'catch' the aircraft before it noses over and give you a chance to close the throttle. Alternatively, just remember to close the throttle and allow a few seconds for the engine to respond before you exit the sim.
Thanks,
Nick

fortunjj
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Re: Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post fortunjj »

So, for example, today I start up the Spitfire again - haven't used it for a bit. The throttle was a bit too high from the last flight so it started running off down the runway - quite slowly, though. Set the throttle to idle and applied the brakes. Nope. Nose over, repeated smashing of the prop only stopped by slew mode. OK, fine. This should NOT be necessary if you would just fix the BUG so that the aircraft is set in a sane state on the runway. Anyway, so I use shift 7 to bring up the mechanic window. Might as well just do a complete overhaul... Nope. Doesn't work. Fixes the prop and leaves a bunch of items unfixed. There is a BUG in the state of the maintenance of the aircraft at this point. Now the plane will not auto start until I reload P3D. After a restart the complete overhaul works.

So, if you can see the point of my entire set of posts on this aircraft, it is very clear that you have created an amazing aircraft - one that is hugely fun to fly and is an incredibly accurate simulation of the real thing. And then you have severely crippled it with a provably buggy startup procedure on something that should be really simple. It isn't something that I am doing incorrectly. NONE of what I wrote in the first paragraph should have ever occurred in the first place. I understand that you are stubbornly holding onto the concept of leaving the aircraft in the state it was left but this is NOT a rational idea and it create HUGE problems with an airplane that is very sensitive to its initial state. Further, you have a bug in the maintenance. The fix is NOT to delete a file or to restart P3D. The fix is to find out why smashing the prop (repeatedly) leaves the aircraft in an unknown state.

I do hope that you at least consider resetting the state of the throttle and engaging the parking brake when the aircraft is not started from C&D and is spawned on the runway or a gate in a future update. This would solve pretty much all of the problems with this aircraft. In the meantime, I really do prefer the RealAir version. Yes, it is old. Yes, it is less realistic. But it is reliable. I also hope that you understand that I am not in any way disappointed with my purchase. I own the V35, P40, P51, the Spit and the BF 109 (used in P3D). I'll be picking up the others as time permits. I simply want to FLY the Spitfire without having to worry about the startup state.

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FAC257
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Re: Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post FAC257 »

Maybe trying "Tail Hold Down" option on the Controls 2D pop-up, before trying to start the aircraft???

In the 2D cockpit view, pull the throttle all the way back, and see what the pop-up tool tip reads. If the full back position isn't reading "0%", the aircraft may be starting with the throttle % that is too high. If I don't double check my X-52 every so often for calibration, the full back throttle can read 10%-15%. Starting the Spit with it like that often leads to an immediate nose over on start.
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bladerunner900
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Re: Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post bladerunner900 »

FAC257 wrote:Maybe trying "Tail Hold Down" option on the Controls 2D pop-up, before trying to start the aircraft???

In the 2D cockpit view, pull the throttle all the way back, and see what the pop-up tool tip reads. If the full back position isn't reading "0%", the aircraft may be starting with the throttle % that is too high. If I don't double check my X-52 every so often for calibration, the full back throttle can read 10%-15%. Starting the Spit with it like that often leads to an immediate nose over on start.
That is a very good point. Sometimes my CH USB Throttle Pro does the same and catches me out and I wonder why I'm creeping forward in my other sims with a closed throttle.
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Paughco
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Re: Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post Paughco »

Fortunjj: As soon as I get my Spitfire back on the ground and taxi to my parking spot, I hold the brakes, run her up to about 1,600 rpm for a few seconds to clear her out, then pull her back down to idle and, after she's back down to idle, shut her off by pulling the slow speed cutoff. The prop windmills for a few seconds then stops. I let go of the slow speed cutoff, then shut off the mags, fuel, etc. No overspeed when she starts up the next time. "Cold & Dark" means just that - she'll be cold and dark each time you try to start her. If you leave that off, you can start her up a few minutes later by giving one shot of prime and a bit of throttle, then setting off the starter (boom!).

Often in our MP flights, we arrive early, check our planes over, get set up on JoinFS and Discord, etc., then warm up our airplanes while we're waiting for everybody else to show up. Then we shut down (low idle, followed by slow speed cutoff, etc.) and wait. When it's time to go, our engines are usually warm enough that one shot of prime and a 1/2" or so of throttle is all it takes. Oh yeah - I never start my Spit with the parking brakes on. I always have my feet on the brakes (actually it's the hand grip on the stick in the real airplane) so I can let go if somehow I have too much throttle at startup.

I got my Spit when it first came out for P3Dv4, and takeoffs were no sweat. Then they messed with the airplane on an update and it became much more squirrely on takeoffs. Somewhat upsetting. I read on the Spitfire forum that these changes were made in response to comments from guys that actually fly Spitfires. Here's the link: https://www.nps.gov/planyourvisit/passe ... MP_5088578.

Today it was my turn to lead the A2A Misfits Squadron on a multi-player flight. We took off from a tiny strip in Nepal to fly around Mount Everest, then down into Paro, which is in a skinny canyon. The best machine for the job is the Spitfire. I spent something like six hours flying the Spit over last week, trying to get my takeoffs to stay near the centerline (or at least ON the runway!) and my landings to not bounce. I'm getting close, but not fully there, by a long shot. I don't think A2A would give us a bogus flight model or faulty design. They are passionate about doing it just right.

Hang in, man. You'll tame that beast. Then come fly with us some Sunday! Next weekend will be Bonanzas. Not sure where, but it'll be fun!

Seeya
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Jacques
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Re: Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post Jacques »

Fortunjj, if you look at the thread below this, “Behavior After Propstrike”,you can see that Scott did test the nose over characteristic (and the infinite bounce), identified the faulty code and has it set to be fixed in a future update. I’m just posting this in the hopes that you stick around, or at least return when the update is released to see if it addresses the issue.

fortunjj
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Re: Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post fortunjj »

Not only have I hung in with A2A planes - and this one specifically - I have purchased another one since this posting, the T-6. I immensely enjoy these planes. I use X-Plane as well, but I often come back to use P3D and A2A planes because they are so much fun to fly. Just this evening I took the Spit out again for a flight. My preference is to not start it from C&D - I enjoy flying more than starting the plane. The flight itself was a lot of fun. Yes, there are challenges on takeoff. The first one I botched because I increase the throttle too rapidly but the second attempt I had it up in the air easily. But, the landing was almost perfect as a 3 point landing at about 70 fpm descent rate.

However, as usual, today the startup wasn't fun. It took a few attempts to get the aircraft in a stable state without nosing the prop over. In one case, even though the throttle was set at zero (and I adjusted the throttle slightly with my throttle) for some odd reason the throttle jumped to full on its own. By this point I had the brakes on and, of course, it nosed over. All of these nose over can be arrested using slew mode and I finally figured out how to repair the plane after each nose over.

My rather aggressive assertions about the behavior of this plane on the ground WRT nose over was driven by frustration. Since I now have some repeatable procedures for getting started again after a prop strike (or many of them) I, at least, can use this plane. And that is the bottom line. To me it was clear early on - I started this thread last October - that there was a serious bug in resetting the plane after a nose over. I wrote "I have had pretty much every problem mentioned on this forum - from an uncontrollable aircraft on takeoff, to the aircraft tipping over and destroying the prop in an endless loop when starting with the engines running to not being able to reset the aircraft to an acceptable state without a restart of the sim". These problems were reported on this thread and they have been dealt with - one at a time. I am just waiting for the fix for the endless loop.

Ultimately, all of this was motivated by a real love of this aircraft and the simulation. I want to fly this plane more often than I do currently. Once the hassles of getting it stable on the ground are resolved, it will be a joy to fly. I hope that my (and other's) rather forceful assertions have been helpful in getting these problems resolved. When I was young, I used to have little Matchbox toys of a Spit and a Corsair. They were some of my favorite toys. Those inspired me to use SubLOGIC's FS on my Radio Shack Color Computer 2 around 1984 or so. I have retained an interest in flight simulation since then, moving on to a few versions of Microsoft's flight sims up to FSX and most recently P3D and, as mentioned above, X-Plane. It is, to me, amazing that today I can simulate the flight of the real birds that I had as Matchbox toys in immense detail. I wish I had all of this when I was a kid. Perhaps, though, I would have missed the joy of that simpler time and the knowledge that I gained from growing up in the age of the emergence of home computers. I am an assistant prof at a university in a software department, so all of this has ultimately lead to a career in software. My computer is at the top end of a consumer gaming machine - 8700k at 4.9 GHz with a 2080 TI. So I am ready and waiting for the improvements that I think will make this plane one of the best simulations of a warbird available today, and I can enjoy the simulation with incredible graphics (at 4K) and decent frame rates even with a LOT of eye candy in P3D. Lots of fun...

Anyway, yes, I have stuck with this plane. In fact, I have debated about getting a PPL based on the amount of time (and money) that I have spent on flight simulation over the many years that I have been involved in this hobby. So I don't plan to abandon A2A planes. All I was hoping for was that the Spit would be predictable on startup. It seems that we are there, once the fix comes out. So I am a happy camper, as they say. Although it would be fantastic to one day fly a real Spitfire... I would have come a LONG way from my little metal Matchbox plane :)

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