Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post any technical issues here. This forum gets priority from our staff.
fortunjj
Airman
Posts: 17
Joined: 06 Oct 2018

Re: Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post fortunjj »

@Jaques: Thank you for your reply! I think you are right on the money. Anything but a cold and dark start seems to be problematic.

I will try to save a scenario with these specific starting conditions to see if I can get a stable start with the engine running. I am not sure I can do it because, as you say, the starting throttle settings are difficult to deal with. There should be a note in the manual about this when using a running start. What was most frustrating was the infinite loop entered once the plane did a nose-over and smashed the prop. Surely this can be detected and prevented? Anyway, at least now I know how to get out of this "mode".

Thanks again!

fortunjj
Airman
Posts: 17
Joined: 06 Oct 2018

Re: Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post fortunjj »

speedy70 wrote:
As a very happy A2A customer owning all their products there is nothing wrong with any of them.
Well, the changelogs say otherwise...

These are generally great products - but this aircraft seems to be difficult to initialize properly when not starting it C&D. For me, that is frustrating and is limiting its usefulness.

User avatar
Jacques
Senior Master Sergeant
Posts: 2134
Joined: 26 Jun 2011

Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post Jacques »

But you see Fortunjj, that is my point: I don’t think A2A products, at least anything in the accusim line, is really meant to be initialized at a running start. You are asking the simulation to accomplish something it was not designed to do, so any frustration you may feel is certainly not the fault of A2A.

As for the “running scenario” I have to emphasize that I’ve never done that before so I can’t be certain it will work. Or if it does work, will continue to work over time.

Finally I must stress that you should load into that scenario only after first loading into a default aircraft first, then switch into the saved scenario.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

fortunjj
Airman
Posts: 17
Joined: 06 Oct 2018

Re: Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post fortunjj »

@Jacques: Fair enough. I would then argue that the option to start this aircraft in a running state via shift 3 should be removed.

If you leave the option in and it doesn't work properly, it is a bug. If you remove it, a feature of the aircraft is that it must be started C&D. The first is the developer's problem. The second is the developer's choice. BTW, I'm completely good with removing the "start running" option. If that were advertised as a feature, I may not have purchased the aircraft, but then that would be MY choice.

Edit... I forgot to add that I really appreciate your honest answer. I have received a number of responses to the tune of - "it works PERFECTLY when starting from a running state" to "this is all your fault - the problem can be solved with careful troubleshooting". Both of these responses are provably incorrect - it CANNOT be started perfectly from a running state - as you have correctly pointed out and no amount of troubleshooting can fix this - it is a feature of the aircraft (and, quite possibly, accusim in general). In any case, my conclusion at this point is exactly as you stated - this aircraft should NOT be started running, because the results are indeterminate. I actually had arrived at that conclusion BEFORE I posted anything, and, in fact, that is pretty much exactly what I first posted.

TreeTops
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 537
Joined: 07 Apr 2010

Re: Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post TreeTops »

What is your throttle setting when you start a flight? I normally start cold and dark because its fun to start up the aircraft, however I have never had a problem switching planes from say a default f22 with engine running to an a2a aircraft with the engine running. Earlier you wrote that when you start a flight in the spit, it rolls forward or noses over, which would indicate that the engine is receiving a lot of throttle instruction. Before starting the flight, cycle your throttle control to full and back to minimum. See if this helps. If it does work, you will need to then adjust your idle up to the recommended range per normal operation.
Disclaimer, I haven't upgraded to the P3Dv4 version yet.
Cheers
Trev

User avatar
Lewis - A2A
A2A Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 31014
Joined: 06 Nov 2004
Location: Beccles, Suffolk, UK
Contact:

Re: Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post Lewis - A2A »

Hello,

Happy to help you troubleshoot the issue, you'll notice that not everyone encountered this, since release yours being the first post. So yes there is troubleshooting to carry out so we can see if an update is needed for your particular system setup/use case or if its a setting on your system (as treetops mentions, default flight would be in the early troubleshooting steps to check throttle isn't saved as anything but idle, which would result depending on load time as the exact error you are seeing. P3D loads in increments, the sim can sometimes be live and running before it is finished fully loading) if you would like to get flying in the Spitfire.

thanks,
Lewis - A2A
A2A Facebook for news live to your social media newsfeed
A2A Youtube because a video can say a thousand screenshots,..
A2A Simulations Twitter for news live to your social media newsfeed
A2A Simulations Community Discord for voice/text chat

User avatar
Jacques
Senior Master Sergeant
Posts: 2134
Joined: 26 Jun 2011

Re: Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post Jacques »

Hi Fortunjj,

Like TreeTops, I’ve always started from a cold and dark situation, so I have no experience with a running start. So you caught me out, I admit, by mentioning there is an option to do so!

With that in mind, what TreeTops mentions about throttle settings upon starting the scenario is completely relevant in your situation.

Also, both Lewis and Nick are extremely helpful and competent in situations such as yours. If there is a scenario you wish to accomplish that is within the capabilities of the Spitfire, they can certainly help you achieve your goals.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

User avatar
Jacques
Senior Master Sergeant
Posts: 2134
Joined: 26 Jun 2011

Re: Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post Jacques »

Me again, can I ask, are you trying to recreate a situation where the aircraft has already been started and warmed, to simulate a “scramble”, so you just jump in and takeoff directly- no messing about?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

fortunjj
Airman
Posts: 17
Joined: 06 Oct 2018

Re: Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post fortunjj »

@Jacques: Yep, pretty much just a convenience thing - if one is trying to practice takeoffs, for example, there is no need for a C&D start. Sometimes, one just wants to fly, without the hassle of a cold start.

User avatar
Oracle427
Chief Master Sergeant
Posts: 3792
Joined: 02 Sep 2013

Re: Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post Oracle427 »

Can't you use Ctrl-E to fire up?
Flight Simmer since 1983. PP ASEL IR Tailwheel

User avatar
WB_FlashOver
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 787
Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Location: (S05) U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post WB_FlashOver »

I am interested in the "Default Flight". I don't do C&D in most of my aircraft. With C&D on the plane will always be in a specific state. With C&D off it merely means that you will find your aircraft in much the same state as you left it, i.e. flaps down, trim set, etc. Neither can I imagine going to the airport for a flight and showing up with plane running and warmed up just waiting for me. For this reason the first thing I do when installing my sim is set up my default flight. I have only had to instantly shut down sim during flight a couple of times and with C&D off there can be an issue with that. Loading your default flight completely in to parking spot will help with this. I do have Crash Detect enabled so that if I do actually crash my plane I have to pay the consequences of my errors. I just back up my plane data files before each flight just in case of that erroneous crash box.

ATM my default flight is the P3Dv4 stock Beach Baron 58. It is staged at my local airport, engines off, mags off, lights off, throttle at minimum, mixture cut, prop forward, zoom is set, AP settings off, etc. You could even save this flight with Pause or Slew enabled if this would help your situation. By taking very precise steps setting up the default flight there are never any surprises on sim launch. And as mentioned above, operate your controller axis during flight loading.

Working through the issues with those willing to help will bring you to a much more satisfactory end than accusations and pointing fingers. I understand your frustration but at the same time it is irritating knowing that there are literally thousands of (if not tens of thousands) Spitfires out there with very happy customers putting many hours on them. The P-51 Mustang is a prime example of thread after thread after thread of pilots new to the Mustang saying it is a piece of crap. 100% of the time (if they stay with it and let the knowledgeable staff and forum members help) the Mustang becomes one of their favorite aircraft for you. 8)

I wish you well and hope for many enjoyable hours in this fantastic aircraft. :wink:

Cheers
Roger

EDIT: For instant flights I would suggest setting up default flight as I mentioned and then simply press Auto Start from Shift+3. This gives you a warm engine and ready for action.
-- Fly Well, Be Nice, Have Fun ! ! !

Z390 FTW | i9 9900K @ 5.2 | 16GB 3333 CL14 | 1080 Ti FTW3
970 Pro 512GB (OS)| 970 Evo 1TB | 850 Evo 500GBx2 Raid0
3TB HDD | Define S2 | EKWB Dual Loop


P51civ - T6 - P40 - B17 - B377 - L049 - Comanche 250 - Spit

User avatar
Nick - A2A
A2A Captain
Posts: 11092
Joined: 06 Jun 2014
Location: UK

Re: Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post Nick - A2A »

Hello fortunjj,

Today I've made a few flights in the Spit, and the only way I can reproduce the behaviour you're describing is by exiting the sim when the engine is running at high power. Because of the persistent nature of the aircraft modelling, that means the aircraft will next load with the same power setting as when you exited the sim, which is what's causing the nose over you're describing.

There are a few ways to easily get round this issue if you prefer to use the sim in this way which is fine (e.g. end the flight just after take-off and then reload the flight on the runway with the engine running.)

For example, you could use the P3D "position freezer user" option (I assign this to Ctrl Shift P) or the slew option as you've noted to 'catch' the aircraft before it noses over and give you a chance to close the throttle. Alternatively, just remember to close the throttle and allow a few seconds for the engine to respond before you exit the sim.

Ultimately, because the aircraft is designed to respond realistically at various power settings, you'll need to use it realistically (or use the workarounds mentioned above) to get the best out of it. The Spit's tendency to nose over is why there's the option to hold the tail down in the Shift 3 menu after all.

Thanks,
Nick

P.S. Yeah, bugs will occasionally find their way into finished products and when this happens, we'll do our best to find and address them. However, I don't think this is a bug.

User avatar
bladerunner900
Senior Master Sergeant
Posts: 1768
Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Location: South Wales

Re: Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post bladerunner900 »

Nick - A2A wrote:Hello fortunjj,

Today I've made a few flights in the Spit, and the only way I can reproduce the behaviour you're describing is by exiting the sim when the engine is running at high power. Because of the persistent nature of the aircraft modelling, that means the aircraft will next load with the same power setting as when you exited the sim, which is what's causing the nose over you're describing.

There are a few ways to easily get round this issue if you prefer to use the sim in this way which is fine (e.g. end the flight just after take-off and then reload the flight on the runway with the engine running.)

For example, you could use the P3D "position freezer user" option (I assign this to Ctrl Shift P) or the slew option as you've noted to 'catch' the aircraft before it noses over and give you a chance to close the throttle. Alternatively, just remember to close the throttle and allow a few seconds for the engine to respond before you exit the sim.

Ultimately, because the aircraft is designed to respond realistically at various power settings, you'll need to use it realistically (or use the workarounds mentioned above) to get the best out of it. The Spit's tendency to nose over is why there's the option to hold the tail down in the Shift 3 menu after all.

Thanks,
Nick

P.S. Yeah, bugs will occasionally find their way into finished products and when this happens, we'll do our best to find and address them. However, I don't think this is a bug.
Yeah, Pretty much what I do. Close the throttle before closing the sim, or switching aircraft. If I'm feeling particularly lazy I just slew a couple of feet into the air and let her go. No taxi, no take off. Just like a carrier launch. :shock: :lol:

Steve.
"Patience young Grasshopper!"
Image
& all the others. System Spec

fortunjj
Airman
Posts: 17
Joined: 06 Oct 2018

Re: Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post fortunjj »

Nick - A2A wrote:Hello fortunjj,

Today I've made a few flights in the Spit, and the only way I can reproduce the behaviour you're describing is by exiting the sim when the engine is running at high power. Because of the persistent nature of the aircraft modelling, that means the aircraft will next load with the same power setting as when you exited the sim, which is what's causing the nose over you're describing.

There are a few ways to easily get round this issue if you prefer to use the sim in this way which is fine (e.g. end the flight just after take-off and then reload the flight on the runway with the engine running.)

For example, you could use the P3D "position freezer user" option (I assign this to Ctrl Shift P) or the slew option as you've noted to 'catch' the aircraft before it noses over and give you a chance to close the throttle. Alternatively, just remember to close the throttle and allow a few seconds for the engine to respond before you exit the sim.

Ultimately, because the aircraft is designed to respond realistically at various power settings, you'll need to use it realistically (or use the workarounds mentioned above) to get the best out of it. The Spit's tendency to nose over is why there's the option to hold the tail down in the Shift 3 menu after all.

Thanks,
Nick

P.S. Yeah, bugs will occasionally find their way into finished products and when this happens, we'll do our best to find and address them. However, I don't think this is a bug.
Fair enough - I will certainly acknowledge that I was frustrated with the behavior of this airplane. Calling the restart behavior a bug may have been a bit of a rush to judgement. Might I ask WHY the sim would retain the state that the airplane was in before it was shut down (even if it was flying at full throttle at FL 100 at shutdown) when the scenario has been reset and the aircraft is now sitting on the runway? This is clearly an aircraft reset... X-Plane handles this correctly - when a flight is reset, the airplane is loaded in a default state that is not related to the state it was left in. I seem to be missing something with respect to why LM would design the sim to behave in a persistent way on a reset...

There isn't much detail on holding the tail down... Would I be correct in assuming that the practice that is simulated here is holding the tail down while the pilot adds considerable throttle before the brakes are released so that a higher speed start is permitted without nosing over? Indeed that option would allow for more throttle before the plane tilts over. I was in the habit of adding considerable elevator to try to avoid this anyway, but I often don't have a chance if the plane resets to the last (flying) state, and elevator is only going to work once there is enough airflow over the tail.

User avatar
Jacques
Senior Master Sergeant
Posts: 2134
Joined: 26 Jun 2011

Re: Aircraft unusable - deleted

Post Jacques »

Holding down the tail is necessary to do the run up checks in the Spitfire, Fortunj. You release those guys via the menu after the checks are accomplished and then you takeoff! Holding the brakes and applying the power needed for those checks will (without the guys leaning on the tail) always result in the aircraft tipping onto the prop. That goes for this model just as sure as it does for the real aircraft.

new reply

Return to “Spitfire MkI/II Tech Support”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest