Now: How am I to fly this bird?

[Sayuuk]

Hi,

I'll try to rephrase this whole post (the original post is in the code-box below).


I've been looking at videos and reviews of this bird for well over a week now.

What I simply cannot understand is how you are supposed to navigate...


First:
I know that this was done by remote in reality, the pilot couldn't do more than VFR navigation by himself

Second:
I know that you try to picture these planes as detailed and realistic as possible.


But:

I can't stand this map... it shows you everything. So you either have no navigation at all or you basically have a GPS...
You can see the more or less exact position of your plane, you can see the heading, nav aids, everything...

How is it more realistic to use this GPS-map than to tweak reality a bit and install an RMI/DME? Its easily possible to either hide those (by inserting a gauge switch, that switches between RMI+DME / "2 random unimportant gauges".
And please add some way to change all the frequencies without a popup...

You can't talk about realism but have everybody do the most basic navigation with "modern popups".

I realize that some might like this way of flying (to each his own)...

But:

You are wasting a perfectly simulated/designed product by limiting its capabilities.

What I think needs to be added/changed

- Add RMI/DME to the cockpit. This can be done by using switches that can change which gauges are displayed. If some people want to stay with their actual cockpit, you can add a little tool to change which cockpit is displayed in-game.

- Add Nav12/Com12/ADF tuning gauges. This is less important than the above mentioned change but I think it gives a far better feeling if you can keep out of those popups. They are fine for setting a plane up on the ground but shouldn't bee needed when in the air.

I realize that this is not how this plane navigated in its era, but I think it can (a) easily be hidden for thos who don't want it and (b) still makes flying this plane feel much more natural & realistic!!!


Epilogue

Love the design/model
Love the sound
Love the engine-realism
But those issues waste the potential...


Thanks, Stefan


P.S.: No, I'm not a customer (yet), but I'll be as soon as you add/change this =)
I would just wait for the P51, but I fell the Mustang is too Mainstream nowadays and doesn't provide the feeling the Jug gives you ... =/

Code: Select all

Hi,

for the last few days I kept reading about his P47.

It seems to be almost perfect for my kind of flying - love the drop tanks =)

However, there is one thing that is missing for me and kind of prevents me from buying this.


I know that there is the "map popup", but [b]is there any chance that you could add a "Fixed Scale Indicator"?[/b]
The map popup would make me feel like I'm "cheating" already, because you can see everything there, your position, heading, distance to VOR etc...

Example: Xtreme Prototypes with their X1 made it possible to use a normally unused switch so that a rather unimportant gauge get's replaced by an RMI.

Now, I know an RMI would be too advanced for the P47, but a fixed scale indicator (the same one used in the P51) shouldn't be too unrealistic and would provide a more natural feeling to using the plane for radio navigation. If you were able to do it like above mentioned then it wouldn't even bother the people who don't use it or don't want to use it.


If you would add this, I'd buy this plane at once =)


Thanks in advance,

Stefan

P.S.: I don't know about the other planes you did, but I don't like having to use popups (for changing the frequencies for example). If at all possible, I'd be very happy if you would add a more natural way of doing these things.


[size=150][b]edit:[/b][/size]
What I meant was that you could for example use this switch to show a fixed scale indicator that shows at least one VOR/NDB. This could replace the heading gyro, as it also works with a gyro and shows the heading.

If this is at all impossible, I think I'll just wait for the P51... that should have it...

Although the P47 is just a whole different caliber...

[Sayuuk]

Rewrote the initial post!

[Daube]

Why not using a normal Map next to your computer, if you want to avoid the GPS ?
Or Google Maps in a window on another screen/computer...

[Sayuuk]

Why not using a normal Map next to your computer, if you want to avoid the GPS ?
Or Google Maps in a window on another screen/computer...

This plane has a huge range... hard to find an area adequately large that is of enough quality to do VFR in it...

I'd love to do that but I can't get FSX to place the citys and villages in a way that resembles anything on actual charts... =P

[flyboy4612]

Why not using a normal Map next to your computer, if you want to avoid the GPS ?
Or Google Maps in a window on another screen/computer...

This plane has a huge range... hard to find an area adequately large that is of enough quality to do VFR in it...

I'd love to do that but I can't get FSX to place the citys and villages in a way that resembles anything on actual charts... =P

If you want to use real life VFR sectional charts, i'd recommend investing in Orbx's Pacific Northwest terrain. I fly in the real world so I have old sectionals lying around. I did a flight in my Thunderbolt using one of my charts. It's acurrate enough that a row of powerlines I had chosen as a checkpoint on the map were right where they were supposed to be when I looked out of the cockpit. I was able to navigate under VFR from Eugene, Oregon all the way up to Boeing Field. Here is the link to the Orbx terrain: http://fullterrain.com/product_nablue.html
The nice thing is that they have a demo of their product that covers a pretty big area so you can get a feel for what you're buying.

[Sayuuk]

Why not using a normal Map next to your computer, if you want to avoid the GPS ?
Or Google Maps in a window on another screen/computer...

This plane has a huge range... hard to find an area adequately large that is of enough quality to do VFR in it...

I'd love to do that but I can't get FSX to place the citys and villages in a way that resembles anything on actual charts... =P

If you want to use real life VFR sectional charts, i'd recommend investing in Orbx's Pacific Northwest terrain. I fly in the real world so I have old sectionals lying around. I did a flight in my Thunderbolt using one of my charts. It's acurrate enough that a row of powerlines I had chosen as a checkpoint on the map were right where they were supposed to be when I looked out of the cockpit. I was able to navigate under VFR from Eugene, Oregon all the way up to Boeing Field. Here is the link to the Orbx terrain: http://fullterrain.com/product_nablue.html
The nice thing is that they have a demo of their product that covers a pretty big area so you can get a feel for what you're buying.

Thanks, I'll look into that =)

[Elington]

Do you know about "Plan-G" ?, http://www.tasoftware.co.uk/
It's a freeware, and provides maps from Google (with terrain) with navigation overlays from the FSX database.
It has a moving map function but you can just NOT use it, which makes it like a kind of worldwide navigation paper map!

It's our main tool with the B-17
http://a2asimulations.com/forum/viewtop ... 29&t=22028

Happy flying,
David

[CodyValkyrie]

Regarding the radios.... The radios on the P-47 (and most American fighters of the day) were push button boxes set to predetermined frequencies on the ground. A2A wanted to simulate this function while still giving people the ability to change frequencies if necessary for online flying, or wherever. I think it is a very fair compromise.

The suggestions about VFR flying are fine indeed. I often fly planes such as the P-47 via sectional charts. I regularly make trips from England over to Normandy and Portland to the San Juan Islands.

[Sayuuk]

Regarding the radios.... The radios on the P-47 (and most American fighters of the day) were push button boxes set to predetermined frequencies on the ground. A2A wanted to simulate this function while still giving people the ability to change frequencies if necessary for online flying, or wherever. I think it is a very fair compromise.

The suggestions about VFR flying are fine indeed. I often fly planes such as the P-47 via sectional charts. I regularly make trips from England over to Normandy and Portland to the San Juan Islands.

I think I get what you're trying to say.

It's just that I think this plane could be far more versatile by giving several options in the same immersive way (not by using popups).
Adding a VOR needle that you can switch on/off using some hidden switch of sorts would still allow you to fly the way you like it and would allow me to fly the way I like. All this developing of a great model and great systems is useless for me - and I bet for some other people, too....

And I think A2A doesn't follow its principles through, either...

The He219 I bought is pretty disappointing in that direction, I hope they'll work on that... otherwise this was another purchase for the hangar... =(
(I thought A2A was more or less A2A, but there seems to be a big difference between the "normal" A2A products and the Aircraft Factory ones... even the difference in the virtual cockpit is huge...)


Stefan

[CodyValkyrie]

Aircraft Factory is primarily focused on lower priced aircraft which are still high in quality comparative to similar competitive aircraft. Aircraft Factory is more focused on those who are interested in getting in and flying versus the high development times required for fully developed Wings of Power, etc Accusimmed aircraft. This is a repository as well for some of the other developers at A2A and partners who may wish to publish with A2A in this regard.

Accusim and the Wings of Power series are the cream of the crop.

A2A's line of Accusim planes is dedicated towards as much authenticity as possible to their original concepts. This means all planes are crafted to represent "how they were" when they were originally developed as much as possible. This naturally poses problems for the creators, as a lot of these aircraft did not have much in the way of navigational equipment.

In terms of the P-47, the aircraft collectively navigated via dead reckoning, charts, etc when flying in formation. Upon return or as necessary, they were vectored in by radar back to home field.

Another issue with navigation, especially with planes like the 377, is that many of the frequencies used for navigation at the time are simply not accessible in FS, nor or their real world beacon counterparts positioned throughout the virtual world.

The P-51 itself had slightly better navigational equipment than the Razorback P-47s did, which should be slightly better for navigation. The reality however is that many of these planes were never made for inclimate weather conditions. This is why the USAF struggled to hit targets effectively during D-Day operations, and also why you can find so many reports of planes being grounded due to weather conditions during the war. A lot of B-17s simply dropped their bombs at "best guess" or proceeded to alternate targets due to cloud layers.

Whenever the equipment in said planes is available, A2A will try to ensure that they are able to navigate effectively with them. For example, with the B-17 it is possible to home into VORs and NDBs (they both act like an ADF). Furthermore, the B-17 is essentially ILS equipped. There was not effective DME equipment at the time, but you are also able to check the signal strength of these navigational devices which gives an experienced user a "best guess" as to their distance.

[CodyValkyrie]

Just curious, do you own an Accusim product?

The benefit of Accusim, and what people seem to really like is it's ability to replicate the engine and systems details as closely as possible. You will find yourself for the first time in FS REALLY looking over the engine gauges. I'm not just talking about blowing your engine, but things like overspeeding the prop, recorded engine hours that affect your engine, realistic icing, REAL shock cooling, etc.

A2A Simulations was the first to introduce many concepts never seen before in Flight Simulator, for example:
-A working Auto Mixture that replicates their real world counterparts.
-Fully integrated and working Turbo controls.
-Fogging of windows dependent upon atmospheric conditions such as temperature, altitude, humidity, etc.
-First (as far as I know) to collimate a gun sight.
-Recorded engine hours that affect the performance of the aircraft as time goes on which is also dependent on how you treat the engine.
-Random failure systems that include factors like wear, etc.
-Etc, etc etc.

Do me a favor, check your private messages.

-Cody

[Skycat]

This has sort of come up with other aircraft, albeit with a different take. Many people want a WWII-era warbird with modern "FAA approved" avionics just like they see at airshows. There's nothing wrong with that IMO, although I'm a purist and I like my WWII planes to be as close to their wartime configuration as possible.

RealAir had a pretty good solution for this when they rolled out their original FS9 Spitfire; users could choose either a vintage instrument panel or a modern one. This might come at too high a development cost to be be justifiable for the A2A 'vintage' planes, especially the Accusimmed series.

When the A2A B-17 was Accusimmed there were users who wanted GPS navigation. An easy solution was to add the default FSX GPS to an unassigned pop-up slot which allows the pilot to bring it up during flight (see thread). Your particular request might be solved the same way, by assigning a default guage as a pop-up. Is their another FSX plane that offers the VOR needle as a pop-up instrument?

[Skycat]

I experimented a little with adding VOR1, VOR2 and ADF from the Cessna 172 as popups under the Panel 00 (Shift+1), Main Panel. It works; here's what I did:

1. Go into FSX--> SimObjects --> Airplanes and open the WoP3_P-47D-20 folder and then "Panel" subfolder.
2. Open the panel.cfg
3. After the line that reads "gauge00=tester!tester, 420, 300, 400, 1000" (under [Window00]) add these lines:

gauge28=CessnaWAlpha!VOR2_Alpha, 431,247, 79, 79
gauge29=CessnaWAlpha!VOR1_Alpha, 431,167, 79, 79
gauge26=CessnaWAlpha!ADF_Alpha, 431,329, 79, 79

4. Save the panel.cfg and start FSX. Choose the P-47D-20. When it loads, hit Shift+1.

Granted, this isn't the perfect solution but it works. You can move the cluster of guages around to wherever you like. You can also customize the other P-47 variants using the same method. You can also add more Cessna 172 guages or guages from other FSX aircraft by opening their specific panel.cfg and copying the lines for guages you want to use. Mixing and matching from different panels might cause guage overlap though.

[Sayuuk]

Hi all,


I wasn't aware of how exact you want to replicate those planes...

I just love the feeling, sound (engine management) and brute power of those old planes and would have loved to fly one of them following a VOR needle

VFR for me is weird. I tried different products to even start placing cities to their right places, but so far I've only gotten mixed results.

For example my hometown in Germany (p80.000) is about 5 times as big in FSX and mixes with roughly 20-30 of the villages nearby, thereby rendering navigation by cities impossible - even more when I'm at the "original" 30.000ft, then everything just looks like tiles...


==> I'll have a look at the P-51 when it comes out (the video already looks promising!!) as this might provide the instruments I am looking for.


==>I wasn't trying to suggest you make your planes unrealistic! What I like is to fly those planes, manage their engines as intensively, feel the added weight of droptanks and weapons and STILL follow my one tiny VOR needle from one VOR to another. I wasn't suggesting you add HSI's, RMI's and G/S indicators to the planes. Just one little (authentic looking) VOR needle in the VC that one can switchoff using one of the few switches that are unused now. No one flying this plane "correctly" would notice it's there but I could use it anyway =P



Thanks for all your long answers!


Stefan

[CAPFlyer]

Back during their time, radio navigation wasn't available with any large ability, that's why the long range aircraft had navigators and that's why there was always an aircraft with such a crewman aboard that led formations of smaller aircraft like fighters during long transits - well into the 1990's. Even now, long transits in fighters still are routinely accompanied by tanker aircraft not only for them to be able to make the entire transit non-stop, but also to have backup navigation capability in case of failure of the onboard navigation of the fighters.

So how did fighters navigate during WWII, even stateside? Simple - a map and dead reckoning. If you want to navigate long range, you can get charts from several locations, especially for the US, in electronic form, plan your flight, and then fly it using dead reckoning - you fly a given course for a given time and then make a turn. When you get good at it, it's extremely reliable and doesn't care what the weather is like.

BTW, adding that VOR needle is not a small feat, so I doubt it'll happen.