P-47? Not for me...

[Private-Cowboy]

Hi there,

I'm a huge fan of your 377 (post-SP1 state, wasn't that impressed with the pre-SP1) and I was willing and prepared to buy whatever would come next. But I've to admit the P-47 surprised me...

While I don't think the Jug is not the next masterpiece I think it's simply way overpriced. I'm asked to pay 27% more for the Jug than for the Stratocruiser? Why?

We're getting into a situation where addons are getting more and more expensive and you simply cannot afford them anymore. I know there is a huge development work involved with AccuSim but you should come out of the developer corner and look around in the world a bit.

Things are getting more and more expensive everywhere. My monthly budget for FSX-addons dropped to a slim 30$ per month from more than double that at the beginning of my FSX-time. My income is simply eaten up by everyday expenses - as is yours prolly.

The Jug will be the first victim and I hope that ... whatever will be next in the WOS-line ... will not see another 27% increase or A2A will be out of my reach for a long long time.

You do a great job developing such great addons but let sanity take control of the pricing again.

Best regards,
Oliver Beyer

[big-mike]

Totally agree!
Sorry to say this,i also have the 377 and it`s really a wonderful aircraft.
But i am also not able and willing to pay such a price for an addon.
Hope,you are thinking about prices so that eveybody could buy your
really great aircrafts.
Best regards
Michael

[ICDP]

I know money is tight in what are hard times for many people but I think clarification is needed on the misconception that the WoP3 P-47D is a $60 addon. The WoP3 P-47 and the Accu-Sim expansion pack are two addons that when purchased together cost approx $60. Accusim is a brandname we use at A2A for the complex separate expansion pack that is uniquely tailored to accurately simulate the engine and systems for its corresponding aircraft addon. The WoP3 P-47D without Accu-Sim is a fully featured high quality addon aircraft for FSX and is very competitively priced when compared to similar single aircraft addons. Please in the interest of fairness stop looking at the P-47D with Accusim as one single addon. It is not mandatory to purchase the seperate Accu-Sim expansion pack to fly the beautifully modeled P-47D Razorback.

Wings of Power 3 P-47 Razorback:
Price $34.99 ($27.99 with the rebate for owners of the older FSX Razorback)

Accusim Expansion Pack for the P-47
Price $29.99

Bundle deal for WoP3 P-47 with Accusim Expansion Pack
Price $59.98 ($52.98 with the rebate for owners of the older FSX Razorback

[Private-Cowboy]

To be perfectly honest I don't see it that way. The new Jug and the AccuSim for it where developed hand in hand and are tightly integrated. Surely you can do without AccuSim but you can also do without sound etc. So why not sell those parts seperately too?

I know A2A has achieved a lot with AccuSim but in my eyes it's part of the addon, ripped out and sold sperately - as if PMDG would sell the FMC for the MD-11 seperately. Surely you can do without but who on earth wants that?

I must also say that flight sim addons in general are getting way over the top in respect to pricing. For 50$ you can get a hardcore heli sim, that ... no offense ... blows AccuSim out of the water in respect to realism. I'm speaking of DCS Black Shark which is also developed by a great team of sim enthusiasts.

I don't want to start a discussion about the quality of A2A addons because there is not one spot I don't like. I just wanted to point out that the pricing (and the 27% increase over the 377 including AccuSim) causes some potential buyers to shy away. It did with me as I'm simply not able to afford the whole package and not willing to put up with a watered down AccuSim-less version.

As for competetive pricing of the AccuSim-less Jug I beg to differ. I'm thinking about the Hughes H-1 here which costs only 28$ and offers some failures etc in the package already without a seperate 'module'. Surely it can't compete with the AccuSim Jug but if I pit the AccuSim-less Jug against the H-1 I've to say that the H-1 offers the better bang for the bug. It's 20% cheaper, visually on par, also very fps-friendly and offers some sort of depth - not as much as AccuSim but far more than a AccuSim-less Jug.

Again I don't wanna criticise the wonderful work you've done. I'm not even questioning the price tag you're putting on addons as I've no right to do so. A2A puts whatever price they feel is right (and they feel people are willing to pay) on the addons. I'm just wanting to point out that doeing so may bar quite a few people from joining the ranks of Jug pilots.

Best regards,
Oliver Beyer

[ICDP]

To be perfectly honest I don't see it that way. The new Jug and the AccuSim for it where developed hand in hand and are tightly integrated. Surely you can do without AccuSim but you can also do without sound etc. So why not sell those parts seperately too?

With all due respect, the idea that a payware warbird addon can do without custom sound is seriously flawed. It is a poor analogy in all honesty.

I know A2A has achieved a lot with AccuSim but in my eyes it's part of the addon, ripped out and sold sperately - as if PMDG would sell the FMC for the MD-11 seperately. Surely you can do without but who on earth wants that?

Many people chose to buy the P-47D without Accusim and welcome the fact the P-47D base pack was sold separately at a competitive price (compared to other warbird addons). The PMDG MD-11 for FSX costs $80, how is this helping prove your point?

I must also say that flight sim addons in general are getting way over the top in respect to pricing. For 50$ you can get a hardcore heli sim, that ... no offense ... blows AccuSim out of the water in respect to realism. I'm speaking of DCS Black Shark which is also developed by a great team of sim enthusiasts.

I am not defending this trend but this has always been the case with flightsim addons as far back as I can remember. My first ever addon cost me half the price of FS9. Also the potential market for a combat flightsim while still nothing compared to AAA title levels is still way beyond the potential sales of a payware warbird addon for FSX.

I don't want to start a discussion about the quality of A2A addons because there is not one spot I don't like. I just wanted to point out that the pricing (and the 27% increase over the 377 including AccuSim) causes some potential buyers to shy away. It did with me as I'm simply not able to afford the whole package and not willing to put up with a watered down AccuSim-less version.

Have you bought any other competitors warbird addons recently? I have and I personally feel the WoP3 P-47D compares very favourably and is better in a lot of respects for a similar price.

As for competitive pricing of the AccuSim-less Jug I beg to differ. I'm thinking about the Hughes H-1 here which costs only 28$ and offers some failures etc in the package already without a separate 'module'. Surely it can't compete with the AccuSim Jug but if I pit the AccuSim-less Jug against the H-1 I've to say that the H-1 offers the better bang for the bug. It's 20% cheaper, visually on par, also very fps-friendly and offers some sort of depth - not as much as AccuSim but far more than a AccuSim-less Jug.

How do you know the Hughes H-1 racer offers better depth than an AccuSim-less Jug? By your own admission you don't own the Wings of Power 3 P-47D so you personal experience to compare. I have both addons and find bothe to be excellent. In my experience the AccuSim-less Jug offers plenty in comparison to the H-1. Admitedly the price for the H-1 is much more favourable but not drastically so.

Again I don't wanna criticise the wonderful work you've done. I'm not even questioning the price tag you're putting on addons as I've no right to do so. A2A puts whatever price they feel is right (and they feel people are willing to pay) on the addons. I'm just wanting to point out that doeing so may bar quite a few people from joining the ranks of Jug pilots.

Best regards,
Oliver Beyer

I'm not going to argue over pricing because everyone feels differently about what they feel is a "fair price". What I will argue about is the statement that the WoP3 P-47D and Accusim are a single addon and should be priced as such. There are plently of warbird addons that offer the same (or even less) functionality as the P-47D base pack. We priced our high quality WoP3 P-47D to be competitive with these addons. We price the seperate Accu-Sim expansion packs according to the fact that they practically double the development time of each A2A aircraft we release.

[some1 - A2A]

While I don't think the Jug is not the next masterpiece I think it's simply way overpriced. I'm asked to pay 27% more for the Jug than for the Stratocruiser? Why?

Because of exchange rates unfortunately. In my local currency it costs 70% more that 377 a year ago, while in US dollars the pricing is almost the same.

Speaking about others - DCS:Black Shark was developed for Kamov (at least big part of the simulation), that's why they decided to model a rather unusual and niche aircraft. Eagle Dynamics (the producer) has other sources of income, they make professional simulators for U.S. army (the A-10C and Spectre) and do their game for end-users almost in 'free time'. Aerosoft is the biggest and probably best known FS addon company out there, probably they can afford to set lower prices because they sell much more copies. If you compare the A2A with smaller companies, things start to look a bit different.

As ICDP pointed out, these P47 and Accusim are two separate addons. You can't afford a 60$ plane at once, but can you afford a 35$ plane, plus optionally an addon for it a month or two months later? The base P-47 is very competitive, and frankly, it's a better deal for 35 bucks than previous A2A warbirds. There is no single thing that older planes have and base P47 don't have. It's not ripped out - you got all HQ textures, models, effects, realistic flight model, you can use the same manual to start and fly the airplane. Of course Accusim adds many extra and unique things that are simulated outside core FSX engine. Unfortunately it makes their development more difficult and expensive - that's why no one does it on a large scale, except A2A .

I'm not thinking about it as PMDG MD-11 without FMC, rather as MD-11 without virtual copilot (which is sold as separate addon by the way). Also remember that comparing warbirds to tubeliners is like comparing flight sims to mainstream games. It's a niche within a niche. I'm surprised that A2A survived so long doing only this type of aircraft.

[Private-Cowboy]

@ICDP: As I already said I'm not a warbird collector. I collect exceptionally well done addons. If one is a warbird that's fine with me. But I don't have a warbird yet. I considered the RealAir Spit but did not get it.

Also my comparison between the H-1 (which I own) and the P47 (which I don't) is partly based on assumptions - since I don't know the P-47 and how she is without AccuSim. I know the H-1 well and am very pleased with this addon. It does not 'surprise' you as much (in respect to failures) as the 377 (which I also own) does nor is it as complex or deep.

I can only assume that the P-47 is similar to the 377 when 'accusimmed' and that the P-47 without accusim is similar to the 377 without it. Based on that assumtion the H-1 would offer a 'rounder' experience. But I may be wrong and I can hardly discuss the matter of complexity without haven flown the Jug myself - with or without AccuSim.

The MD-11 costs 80$, that's true. But in my eyes you get A LOT. Maybe I lean more towards mordern tubeliners than I do towards warbirds but I had no problem getting the MD-11 for 80 bucks when it was released. That was some time ago and things where easier back then. The MD-11 however comes with two totally different models (pax and freigher) that behave according to the real specs. The MD-11 also features extensive failure simulation for every single part of the plane. The MD-11 also features a fully functional flight managment system, autopilot etc etc. The size of the manual alone speaks volumes.

With all due respect, I think the MD-11 is far more complex than ... well you can't compare a warbird with an airliner can you - different age, different size, different use, different complexity because of computers and such. I just want to say putting an 80$ price tag on an airliner simulation as deep as the MD-11 is not cheap either but something I could live with back then.

@some1: Exchange rates are another problem. Back when the 377 was released the Euro-USD-Conversion was 1:1.6 Now it's more like 1:1.3 so addons are getting a double price increase. Funny enough a lot of developers (not A2A luckily) started to charge in Euro back then but have not switched back now that things have gotten a bit better from a $-standpoint.

I did not know that Kamov was involed with Black Shark. Great to know, thanks!

I also know that warbirds are a niche in a niche. That's why I'm looking forward to the next WOS because I'm more the civil guy. (at least in FSX)

I also was of the opinion that the major development work behind AccuSim took place for the 377. The foundation of the entire AccuSim system has to be done for that first installment. The AccuSim for the Jug is uniquely tailored for the Jug but in the end development did not have to start at zero. Given that (assumption again) following AccuSim-addons should actually require less development and be cheaper. Instead both packages are more expensive than their 377-counterparts.

I did not want to start a heated discussion about the 'cause' but more give you something to think about and take into consideration when the next addon might get released and the question is again 'what price tag do we put on it'.

Best regards,
Oliver Beyer

[GAJIT]

This topic will never end as what you or i or anyone else considers good value in comparison to any other product does not matter.

Sure I would have prefered to have paid a few quid less for the P-47 and Accusim but would I be without it now? - like you are - NO WAY!!

[jcblom]

This topic will never end as what you or i or anyone else considers good value in comparison to any other product does not matter.

Sure I would have prefered to have paid a few quid less for the P-47 and Accusim but would I be without it now? - like you are - NO WAY!!

I agree, money is a personal thing.
You think it is too expensive? Don't buy it. A2A make it, and that's what they want for it. Buying it is your choice.
I never bought the 377, because I don't like big airliners. Paying anything for an airliner would be too much for me.
Me, I think the P-47 is cheap for what you getting, which is the best, but then I'm really fond of warbirds...now for the Mustang...please??

[gwolb]

I see your point PC, and I was on the fence about getting the P-47, but after seeing all the info about the FPS being great, and all the detail I went ahead and got it, with the AccuSim addon. After flying around with this, Iam even more impressed with it. It gets as good FPS as the H1, which I got when it came out. But the H1 does not even compare to the detail and realism that is the P-47. Besides the 377, this is the only plane that I have ever had to actually read the manual on, and actually looked on the internet to find actual info about engine info./flight instructions. Not sure that this helps justify the cost, but Iam sure glad I got this plane, would spend the $60 again with out even thinking about it.

Hope this helps give some perspective on this plane.

[GlennC]

All things are relative. In my case, the price of the both parts of the P-47 package is about what I would pay for a nice dinner out for two. Since my wife is gone so much, I get the enjoyment (frustration, sometimes ) that pays back every time I fly it. That's well worth it. I don't know how that plays out in other currencies, but those are choices we all have to make. I do know, it does work both ways. If I buy a product from any source outside the USA (Aerosoft, Sibwings, Iris, whoever) , I see the fluctuations, too. The same calculus applies. If it is a good product, we makes our choices and pays our bills.

I am more than happy to reward the makers of a quality product. They have earned it.

Glenn

[Skycat]

I looked at it this way: The P-47 is my favorite single-engined aircraft, and one I have consistently flown in combat simulators and Flight Simulator throughout the years. My favorite MSFS plane(s) prior to getting the WoP 3 Thunderbolt was the original Shockwave Productions Thunderbolt pack. I have read the vintage manuals on this plane and watched the original training videos, and for a long time my wish was for a highly realistic Thunderbolt simulation that goes beyond increasing the throttle and adjusting the trim.

I briefly hesitated on purchasing the whole Accu-Sim bundle, but then I realized:

1. This is as close as I'll ever get to owning my own P-47.
2. This is as close as I'll ever get to flying a real P-47.
3. Even if I was allowed to fly a real P-47, I couldn't afford the fuel.
4. If I could afford the fuel, I couldn't afford the maintenance, insurance, etc...
5. ... So I'd just sit at home and play video games instead ...
6. ... But a new video game costs about $40-$50.

[JJB17463rdBombGroup]

I looked at it this way: The P-47 is my favorite single-engined aircraft, and one I have consistently flown in combat simulators and Flight Simulator throughout the years. My favorite MSFS plane(s) prior to getting the WoP 3 Thunderbolt was the original Shockwave Productions Thunderbolt pack. I have read the vintage manuals on this plane and watched the original training videos, and for a long time my wish was for a highly realistic Thunderbolt simulation that goes beyond increasing the throttle and adjusting the trim.

I briefly hesitated on purchasing the whole Accu-Sim bundle, but then I realized:

1. This is as close as I'll ever get to owning my own P-47.
2. This is as close as I'll ever get to flying a real P-47.
3. Even if I was allowed to fly a real P-47, I couldn't afford the fuel.
4. If I could afford the fuel, I couldn't afford the maintenance, insurance, etc...
5. ... So I'd just sit at home and play video games instead ...
6. ... But a new video game costs about $40-$50.

Exactly I will never get to Pilot a real aircraft although I'd love to and how few people right now get the opportunity to Pilot a real vintage warbird as there as so few left.I want the simulation as realistic as possible.
It's changed from being a simple simulation into a trainer and that I like.I just hope that A2ASimulations will come out with several dozen accu-sim WOP III aircraft add ons.So far we just have 2.Due to my financial situation I won't be able to get this until next month (March) though.

[Fodda]

In my case, the price of the both parts of the P-47 package is about what I would pay for a nice dinner out for two.

Glenn! Well done mate. Because of the large price increase over the B377 I'd convinced myself that I couldn't afford the P47 with AccuSim.

But of course, all I have to do now is NOT take Mrs Fodda out for a St Valentine's Day dinner tomorrow, and the money I've saved will pay for the aeroplane AND AccuSim.

Of course there's the added bonus that after she's not had her treat, and seen me spend £50 on a "computer game", that I'll get years of uninterrupted time to fly the thing.

[Private-Cowboy]

I'm not sure Mrs Fodda would like that and agree with it. But after all you get some time with the Jug while Mrs Fodda is angry.