Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

BIG, double-deck, four-engine, medium to long range, high altitude, high speed, commercial transport airplane
User avatar
Styggron
Master Sergeant
Posts: 1031
Joined: 30 Oct 2015

Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post Styggron »

Jacques wrote:The autopilot is very basic. It will maintain the altitude you select ( flip the "altitude hold" switch within as you approach that altitude) and make shallow, coordinated turns (turn off rudder boost when on autopilot) but it will not sync with any navigation device. So, you're still very much involved in making sure the aircraft goes where you wish. The navigation indicators you mnetioned are just your checks that progress is going according to plan.
Understood.

I still can't find any needle that points to an NDB when I tune one in though. I thought the RMI thing would point to the NDB but nope.
I set everything to ADF, the correct frequency, check the morse code but can't find the guage that points to it... argghhh
Accufeel V2, C172 , B377+L049+COTS, B17G, Piper Cub,Commanche,Cherrokee,Spitfire,Bonanza, P47,P40,both Mustangs
Aircraft Factory Avro Anson, Albatros DIII,Heinkel He-219, F4U Corsair, P51H Mustang, Avro 504, BF109
Watch my incompetent flying Twitch

Bosko
Airman First Class
Posts: 87
Joined: 16 Sep 2015
Location: Detroit

Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post Bosko »

Hi Styggron,

The dual RMI indicator should point towards the NDB. If you're receiving a signal, and your RMI needle selectors are in the ADF position then it should be working fine.

-Brendan
A2A T-6, Comanche, C182, C172, P51 Civilian, B377, Cub.

User avatar
Styggron
Master Sergeant
Posts: 1031
Joined: 30 Oct 2015

Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post Styggron »

Bosko wrote:Hi Styggron,

The dual RMI indicator should point towards the NDB. If you're receiving a signal, and your RMI needle selectors are in the ADF position then it should be working fine.

-Brendan
I'll keep trying especially check the morse identifier to be sure.
Thank you Bosko.
Accufeel V2, C172 , B377+L049+COTS, B17G, Piper Cub,Commanche,Cherrokee,Spitfire,Bonanza, P47,P40,both Mustangs
Aircraft Factory Avro Anson, Albatros DIII,Heinkel He-219, F4U Corsair, P51H Mustang, Avro 504, BF109
Watch my incompetent flying Twitch

User avatar
Styggron
Master Sergeant
Posts: 1031
Joined: 30 Oct 2015

Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post Styggron »

Flew the B377 today.

Got the same problem as I had with this thread, well partially.

Background
===================

When I am at EGPH (Edinburgh UK) and heading to Inverness (EGPE)
* I set the left ADF (ADF1) to 394 (Dundee)
* I set the right ADF (ADF2) to 348 (Dyce Aberdeen)

So this should mean when ADF1 is in range, ONE of the needles on the Dual RMI should point to it and as I pass it start pointing down toward it
The other RMI needle should point to ADF2 (when it is in range) .... IF you can have each needle assigned to an ADF which I am not sure you can.

Sadly, it is inconsistent. Sometimes I can fly right by an ADF with the correct frequency and the Dual RMI does not move at all. Doesn't matter if I have the bottom ADF selector to left freq or right freq
If you put in VOR frequency it works far better, but NDB's for some reason not so much.

There is a switch at the bottom of the panel flick it left and it reads left ADF frequency, switch it right it reads right ADF frequency, or at least it SHOULD do that.

My Question
=========================
* When you have 2 frequencies for ADF, one on the left one on the right. Can you see BOTH of these at the same time on the Dual RMI?
OR
* Can you ONLY see ONE of the ADFs on the needle and this depends whether you have the ADF selector to left freq or right
If this is the case it means you can never have two needles showing you two ADFs which I find is quite odd.

If you can't have two ADFs showing at the same time
======================================================
Why is it dual needle if you can only show 1?


How to reproduce
=========================================
1. Take off from Edinburgh runway 060
2. Put in 394 on left ADF, put 348 on right ADF
3. Put the switch on the bottom to left ADF
4. Fly North East toward Dundee
5. You may or may not get the needle moving. If you do as you fly past Dundee the needle will point behind you
6. Keep flying toward Aberdeen, even if you get right close, even if you select ADF2 (right ADF) the needle will not do anything.

Clearly I'm missing something here.

Thanks in advance everyone.
I'm sticking with FSX because I have every A2A and Aircraft Factory plane, and the planes mean more to me than the simulator used, and I'm not letting go of FSX with my A2A planes :)
Accufeel V2, C172 , B377+L049+COTS, B17G, Piper Cub,Commanche,Cherrokee,Spitfire,Bonanza, P47,P40,both Mustangs
Aircraft Factory Avro Anson, Albatros DIII,Heinkel He-219, F4U Corsair, P51H Mustang, Avro 504, BF109
Watch my incompetent flying Twitch

TreeTops
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 996
Joined: 07 Apr 2010

Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post TreeTops »

here is nothing wrong with the B377. The problem is you have selected NDB's with 38nm range.
Drawing a straight line from Edinburgh to Inverness and then placing 38nm circles around the 2 NDB's, you will see that you are never inside the Aberdeen NDB range circle.
If you fly up the coast towards Aberdeen, you should begin receiving the Aberdeen signal north of Arbroath and loose the Dundee signal south of Stonehaven.
With both left and right ADF switches on, you will see both NDB's on the Dual RMI.

Try the Inverness VORDME 109.20 which has a range of 60nm. Fly departure heading of 349, you should begin receiving Inverness signal abeam Dundee.
Set inverness VOR on the left and select the switch to NAV, Set Dundee ADF on the right and select the switch to ADF.
Cheers
Trev

User avatar
Styggron
Master Sergeant
Posts: 1031
Joined: 30 Oct 2015

Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post Styggron »

TreeTops wrote:
28 Nov 2022, 22:19
here is nothing wrong with the B377. The problem is you have selected NDB's with 38nm range.
Drawing a straight line from Edinburgh to Inverness and then placing 38nm circles around the 2 NDB's, you will see that you are never inside the Aberdeen NDB range circle.
If you fly up the coast towards Aberdeen, you should begin receiving the Aberdeen signal north of Arbroath and loose the Dundee signal south of Stonehaven.
With both left and right ADF switches on, you will see both NDB's on the Dual RMI.

Try the Inverness VORDME 109.20 which has a range of 60nm. Fly departure heading of 349, you should begin receiving Inverness signal abeam Dundee.
Set inverness VOR on the left and select the switch to NAV, Set Dundee ADF on the right and select the switch to ADF.
I never said I draw a straight line to Inverness, I fly right NEXT to Aberdeen.
I fly past Dundee like I wrote and I fly right next to Aberdeen like I wrote, both frequencies in, needle no movement.

If you re read my post above, you see I fly north east. Also please re read points 4, 5 and 6. I clearly say I fly right past and North East is heading right for them.

Also how do you have both ADF's on, there is only a switch that switches to left and one that switches to the right on the panel.

Forget inverness for now, that is where I will fly to ultimately but I fly north east, past Dundee, toward Aberdeen, right next to the NDB......... nothing.
Something is amiss, I can't post pictures so I can't show you the flight path I fear. Looking at the pplan, I fly 5.7nm from Dundee NDB and 12.7nm from Abderdeen NDB. More than enough to pick up the NDB's and yes I checked the frequencies, it is the ones I listed above.

Therefore no. The problem is not that I am more than 38nm from the NDB. You might be thinking why am I flying that way to inverness, well that question is irrelevant to my post. The post is both frequencies in, fly next to them and the dual RMI does not seem to move.
Accufeel V2, C172 , B377+L049+COTS, B17G, Piper Cub,Commanche,Cherrokee,Spitfire,Bonanza, P47,P40,both Mustangs
Aircraft Factory Avro Anson, Albatros DIII,Heinkel He-219, F4U Corsair, P51H Mustang, Avro 504, BF109
Watch my incompetent flying Twitch

TreeTops
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 996
Joined: 07 Apr 2010

Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post TreeTops »

My bad. I got too interested in the radios part.
Styggron wrote:
29 Nov 2022, 03:23
Also how do you have both ADF's on, there is only a switch that switches to left and one that switches to the right on the panel.
A2A B337 Pilots_Manual_For_COTS.pdf pg 57.

1. Audio Selector Switches (5 in a row) - both left and right ADF switches on for audio monitoring if required.
2. RMI Single Needle Switch (left side) - switch to ADF : set to 394 (Dundee)
3. RMI Double Needle Switch (right side) - switch to ADF : set to 348 (Dyce Aberdeen)

So you see, points 2 and 3 allow the single and double needles to both indicate NDB signals on the Dual RMI gauge.
There is no either/or switch, only ADF/NAV selection on either side.
This allows both NDB, both VOR or an NDB/VOR combination.
If either of the RMI Needle Switches are set to NAV instead of ADF you will not pick up the NDB on that side.
Cheers
Trev

User avatar
Styggron
Master Sergeant
Posts: 1031
Joined: 30 Oct 2015

Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post Styggron »

TreeTops wrote:
29 Nov 2022, 06:37
My bad. I got too interested in the radios part.
Styggron wrote:
29 Nov 2022, 03:23
Also how do you have both ADF's on, there is only a switch that switches to left and one that switches to the right on the panel.
A2A B337 Pilots_Manual_For_COTS.pdf pg 57.

1. Audio Selector Switches (5 in a row) - both left and right ADF switches on for audio monitoring if required.
2. RMI Single Needle Switch (left side) - switch to ADF : set to 394 (Dundee)
3. RMI Double Needle Switch (right side) - switch to ADF : set to 348 (Dyce Aberdeen)

So you see, points 2 and 3 allow the single and double needles to both indicate NDB signals on the Dual RMI gauge.
There is no either/or switch, only ADF/NAV selection on either side.
This allows both NDB, both VOR or an NDB/VOR combination.
If either of the RMI Needle Switches are set to NAV instead of ADF you will not pick up the NDB on that side.
Thank you Treetops.... however.

Sorry but looking at all 3 A2A manuals, page 57 does not correspond to your points. [EDIT: See my edit below re the manuals, it's interesting]

1. Stratocruiser_pilots_manual .pdf page 57 is "Chapter 6: propellars"
2. B377_Accusim_Manual.pdf does not have a page 57
3. Accusim_COTS_Manual.pdf page 57 has the heading "new systems" and has no mention of radios

I do not have one called A2A B337 Pilots_Manual_For_COTS.pdf

Looking at Accusim_COTS.pdf page 52 starts with "Navigator's Station".
Page 54 shows "Navigators Radios" and shows the panel and text pointing to each switch. Is this the page you mean? Page 57 is "Chapter 6 Propellers"

There is no visible Version control on the document so either you made a typo or there is a different version of the files.

============================================================================================================
EDIT: I just went to the A2A shop, went to B377 and they had a single manual download whose file was different to mine, it was called "B337 Pilots_Manual_For_COTS.pdf". Just like you said.
Sure enough, scrolling to page 57, it was the same as page 52 of the manual I had. I got this manual at the time from the website. I did not think to check the manual installed in the FSX directory was different, I had no cause to think that but they are different. The FSX installed one had the name you said above and was 160 pages.

Looks like they updated the manual but did not update the website at the time.

Therefore, we were actually both right. It is page 57 for your manual but page 54 on my manual. I have adjusted my text below as well.
Again, no version control I can see in the document but different filenames. No version control makes it hard to be consistent in matching manuals.

From what I can see, all they did is combine the three manuals I listed above into 1. I had a look at the APU section hoping there was more info (see my point about APU below) but it was just the same as my previous manuals unfortauntely so I still don't know what some switches there do).

The manual in the shop right now (I just checked) is the 160 page one, the same as is installed in the FSX directory. A2A B337 Pilots_Manual_For_COTS.pdf
The reason I had the other manuals is that before I bought A2A products, I downloaded every manual they had on the website in 2015 when I first discovered A2A.

=============================================================================================================

With your next point
On page 54 (the manual I had but 57 on the new manual), bottom centre. l It says "ADF Signal selector Switch"
If your frequency tuned on the left ADF and the right ADF should both turn up on the RMI, what is the point is the "ADF Signal selector Switch"?
**Is it to perhaps engage the "ADF Tuning Meter" shown in the centre? There is only 1 meter so maybe the switch indicated which ADF the meter is using? This would make sense.
**if so, it is really the kind of thing that should be added to the manual.

**To me in seemed to imply it needs to be left to receive left and right to receive right but you said that was not the case.

Unfortunately the manual still needs a few little updates for things like this and also the APU portion
**it does not say what the 3 position power switch does entirely, run obviously runs the APU, off turns it off but what does A.P.P position do?
** Also the voltage selector on the APU what do all the other positions do? another thing the manual does not cover at all, sure it tells you on the check list what to have it as, but if a switch has multiple positions, I believe a manual should at least tell you what they all do).

Audio selector -odd issues.
-------------------------------
I usually put the audio selectors on which is why I revisited this issue.
When they are on you should get the morse code when the NDB is in range and by extension, the RMI needle should move.

Well for me this is not the case, often I hear the audio but that RMI needle does not move, then sometimes all of a sudden it **might** change. Seems to be inconsistent.
The B377 was released in 2011 and I bought it in 2015 and updated it several times, so it can't be something that is still a bug everyone would have picked up on it if it was.


What I will try next
-----------------------------
Thanks to our kind reply, at least I know
*** if both ADF's are tuned to the frequencies, it does not matter what the centre "ADF selector switch" is set to, left or right, when the NDB is within range, the RMI needle **should** turn.

So next up.
1. Put in both frequencies in the ADF's left and right
2. Ensure BOTH RMI single/double needle selector switches are set to ADF
3. It will not matter what the bottompanel centre "ADF selector switch" is set to, as hopefully my guess is what I wrote above, probably for the meter.
4. Fly North East toward Dundee and Dyce and ......... see what happens.

I will try to do this flight in the next 48 hours and report back.

Thank you again for jumping in to help TreeTops, I much appreciate it.
I love the B377 and my A2A/Air Craft Fleet so much....... I'm not leaving FSX.

I would only ever swap to FSXI (I call it this because it is flight sim 11) if there was a way to get my FSX ones into FSXI.
NEVER giving up my A2A planes. The planes are more important to me than the sim itself and their performance on FSX is second to NONE.

:)
Last edited by Styggron on 29 Nov 2022, 15:36, edited 3 times in total.
Accufeel V2, C172 , B377+L049+COTS, B17G, Piper Cub,Commanche,Cherrokee,Spitfire,Bonanza, P47,P40,both Mustangs
Aircraft Factory Avro Anson, Albatros DIII,Heinkel He-219, F4U Corsair, P51H Mustang, Avro 504, BF109
Watch my incompetent flying Twitch

TreeTops
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 996
Joined: 07 Apr 2010

Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post TreeTops »

Pg 57 is marked at the bottom, page 60 of the pdf. Seems like we have different versions of the manual. Anyway it is the picture of the navigators radio panel on the centre console you describe on your pg 54.
That left right signal selector switch and the loop knobs either side of it are not used in the sim. Just use the panel forward of the tuning meter.
That signal tuning meter (inop) would have been set to left or right and then the loop knobs on that side what have been manipulated to receive a stronger signal at the range extremity. This is not modelled in the sim so no FSX aircraft have these functions modelled.
Cheers
Trev

TreeTops
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 996
Joined: 07 Apr 2010

Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post TreeTops »

Styggron wrote:
29 Nov 2022, 14:52
Unfortunately the manual still needs a few little updates for things like this and also the APU portion
**it does not say what the 3 position power switch does entirely, run obviously runs the APU, off turns it off but what does A.P.P position do?
** Also the voltage selector on the APU what do all the other positions do? another thing the manual does not cover at all, sure it tells you on the check list what to have it as, but if a switch has multiple positions, I believe a manual should at least tell you what they all do).
The 3 position APU switch (operated by left clicking) is :
Up - Start and run the engine.
Middle - shutdown the engine.
Down - Engage the generator. (You can hear the engine come under load.)

The volt meter above the switch will show approximately 27 volts supplied to the system.
The voltage selector shows available voltage for the 4 engines individually, battery voltage (required to start the APU), and BUS voltage which will show voltage to the system from either the APU or engines.
Cheers
Trev

TreeTops
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 996
Joined: 07 Apr 2010

Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post TreeTops »

So now you have the RMI selectors figured out, you should be able to cruise around tracking NDB's and VOR's at will just by dialing in the frequency and selecting the appropriate signal source.
To avoid confusing myself, knowing what needle is tracking which station is important.
I try to use the left side as the tracking source ahead (inbound) or behind (outbound) and the right side as vectoring from the sides to show progress along the track.
Cheers
Trev

User avatar
Styggron
Master Sergeant
Posts: 1031
Joined: 30 Oct 2015

Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post Styggron »

TreeTops wrote:
29 Nov 2022, 16:16
Styggron wrote:
29 Nov 2022, 14:52
Unfortunately the manual still needs a few little updates for things like this and also the APU portion
**it does not say what the 3 position power switch does entirely, run obviously runs the APU, off turns it off but what does A.P.P position do?
** Also the voltage selector on the APU what do all the other positions do? another thing the manual does not cover at all, sure it tells you on the check list what to have it as, but if a switch has multiple positions, I believe a manual should at least tell you what they all do).
The 3 position APU switch (operated by left clicking) is :
Up - Start and run the engine.
Middle - shutdown the engine.
Down - Engage the generator. (You can hear the engine come under load.)

The volt meter above the switch will show approximately 27 volts supplied to the system.
The voltage selector shows available voltage for the 4 engines individually, battery voltage (required to start the APU), and BUS voltage which will show voltage to the system from either the APU or engines.
Thank you treetops, yes I did the flight a few hours ago and everything worked, tooks ages though to get a signal from Dyce, maybe that is a weaker NDB I don't know but yes I got both needles going.
As for the manuals, I explained it above. yes I have several different manuals for the B377.

Ok the APU's. Again this is not explained in the manual and really it should.

So up is start and run the engine, ok...... so it stays there does it? When when you want APU off you just put it to middle position?

Down is engage generator, ummmm what is this for? What does this do? So you start the APU then switch it to engage generator or something?

What about the APU dial with those 5-6 positions........... what do they do? The manual should tell us what each position does really.
More stuff that should be in the manual but isn't. :cry:
Accufeel V2, C172 , B377+L049+COTS, B17G, Piper Cub,Commanche,Cherrokee,Spitfire,Bonanza, P47,P40,both Mustangs
Aircraft Factory Avro Anson, Albatros DIII,Heinkel He-219, F4U Corsair, P51H Mustang, Avro 504, BF109
Watch my incompetent flying Twitch

TreeTops
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 996
Joined: 07 Apr 2010

Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post TreeTops »

The APU is started and then the generator is engaged. You will see the volt gauge above the switch move up to about 27 volts.
The last sentence of my last reply shows what the 5-6 positions dial is for. The gauge to the left of it shows how many volts at each setting.
You have to remember that this plane and manual were created 10 years ago, and all subsequent planes and manuals have been improved in turn.
There is no point banging on about the manuals because no more work will be done for FSX.
Cheers
Trev

User avatar
Styggron
Master Sergeant
Posts: 1031
Joined: 30 Oct 2015

Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post Styggron »

TreeTops wrote:
30 Nov 2022, 06:07
The APU is started and then the generator is engaged. You will see the volt gauge above the switch move up to about 27 volts.
The last sentence of my last reply shows what the 5-6 positions dial is for. The gauge to the left of it shows how many volts at each setting.
You have to remember that this plane and manual were created 10 years ago, and all subsequent planes and manuals have been improved in turn.
There is no point banging on about the manuals because no more work will be done for FSX.
Asking a simple question is not "banging on".
Adding a few lines to a PDF is not 20 days of work. I have no expectation at all for A2A to make changes to the PDF but......... I would like some humble assistance with my questions :)

Yes I read your last sentence re the volt gauge but it does not give me enough information.
Does BAT mean the APU is still powering the plane? or is that BUS? I read over what you wrote multiple times....... hmmmmm

Also I still don't understand what the bottom 3 position switch on the APU does. Makes no sense to me at all. I need to find a clear explanation.
Yes up turns it on, yes middle turns it off..... and down engages the generator, ummm ok so I need to move it from top to bottom FAST because if you stop it at middle it turns off.

Ok so is there a reason you don't want to engage the generator ie why just have RUN??..... and what does engaging the generator do? (yes I know generators turn on and that does ummm errrrr...........) what does it do to the APU? or does the generators MEAN that when THEY are on, each of them gives power FROM the APU **to** engines 1,2,3 and 4........ is that right? It's not is it?
Accufeel V2, C172 , B377+L049+COTS, B17G, Piper Cub,Commanche,Cherrokee,Spitfire,Bonanza, P47,P40,both Mustangs
Aircraft Factory Avro Anson, Albatros DIII,Heinkel He-219, F4U Corsair, P51H Mustang, Avro 504, BF109
Watch my incompetent flying Twitch

TreeTops
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 996
Joined: 07 Apr 2010

Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post TreeTops »

Styggron wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 04:00
Yes I read your last sentence re the volt gauge but it does not give me enough information.
Does BAT mean the APU is still powering the plane? or is that BUS? I read over what you wrote multiple times....... hmmmmm

Also I still don't understand what the bottom 3 position switch on the APU does. Makes no sense to me at all. I need to find a clear explanation.
Yes up turns it on, yes middle turns it off..... and down engages the generator, ummm ok so I need to move it from top to bottom FAST because if you stop it at middle it turns off.

Ok so is there a reason you don't want to engage the generator ie why just have RUN??..... and what does engaging the generator do? (yes I know generators turn on and that does ummm errrrr...........) what does it do to the APU? or does the generators MEAN that when THEY are on, each of them gives power FROM the APU **to** engines 1,2,3 and 4........ is that right? It's not is it?
The APU switch is left click only. Click click click cycles through the 3 positions. There is no need to be fast.
The APU start position allows for the engine to start and warm up before applying the load of the generator.
The APP position engages the generator so now the engine is driving the generator which is supplying voltage to the main electrical bus. This is the position you need for the APU to be 'working'.
Each of the 4 engines when running also supply voltage to the main bus.
The engines are capable of starting off the battery but it is a huge drain and can quickly kill the battery. The APU however, happily supplies enough voltage to start the 4 engines and run the aircraft systems while you start up.
Once the engines are running, they supply voltage to the aircraft and the APU is no longer needed, so it can be shut down.

the BAT position on the dial means how many volts the battery is capable of supplying to the bus.
Cheers
Trev

new reply

Return to “Boeing 377 Stratocruiser”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests