Anti-Icer Gauge & ILS Questions

[Avio]

I've gotten back at flying the B17 a little after a long absence from it and finding it exciting all over again.

Can't quite recall, but is the Anti-Icer gauge a functioning one? It reads zero throughout. Also, is there a physical gauge for the glycol fluid in the real B17?

On ILS, where is the physical panel for inputting the frequency? The radio panel I know is good for ADF frequency input, but not for ILS.

Looked through the manual and didn't find answer to these questions.

Hope someone could help.

Thanks,

Avio

[Gypsy Baron]

To tune the NAV radios, use the pop-up 2-D panel. I forget which "Shift + Number" ,key sequence
that is as I have mine programmed to open via one of my throttle hat swich positions.

As for the de-icer info, I can't remember any control other than the cabin heat lever there on
the side panel to the left of the pilots seat. I usually set that to about 25% when I enter the cockpit
to keep the windows from fogging over and I increase it as I climb to cruising altitude or when the
crew starts complaining about being cold

I also open both windows until I am ready to roll on the runway as I love the 'raw' sound of those radials
Plus you need the windows open to hear "Clear prop!"

Paul

[Jacques]

Avio,
As far as I know, the anti-ice gauge is functional in as much as it shows a draw down of fluid. This gauge would be for the propeller anti-ice fluid, which is activated on the left side of the pilot on the floor. The wing de-icer switch is also located in the same place. It would activate the de-ice boots on the leading edge of either wing. I don't think either of these have any effect in the simulation since structural icing is not modeled in FSX.

The glycol reservoir has no gauge that can be read in the plane. It should last through the duration of almost any flight capable by the Fortress. If it does drain down excessively during a flight, it may have developed a leak which would be visible in the maintenance hanger.

Shift+6 will bring up the radios 2D panel. The ILS frequency would be tuned into NAV 1 and the gauge is located in the middle panel, upper left hand side immediately above the altimeter.

And I completely agree with Paul about leaving the windows open until you are rolling! . These are the best sounding radials I have ever heard!

JP

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[Avio]

Thanks, fellows. About the anti-icer fluid, the gauge reads zero and there is no provision for topping up of the fluid. Should there be any reading there at all? I understand though that prop icing is not modelled in FSX.

Regards,

Avio

[Jacques]

Hi Avio,
I was wrong about the anti-ice gauge above and between the pilot and co pilot. This is showing air pressure in pounds/ sq. inch and is related not to propeller icing but to the pneumatic wing de-icing boots.

With your engines started and developing power, go to your lower left panel next to the set and turn on wing de-ice. The system is operated through the vacuum pumps, so you will need to be developing power. If you look up at the gauge now you should see it indicating a pressure of around 8 PSI, which was the maximum delivery pressure for the de-icing boots. Trying this at idle won't show any change in pressure on the gauge.

I will try to look through the b-17 manuals I have on the ipad and see if there is more information available. Regardless, in the sim, it is just eye candy! A side note, I believe that most crews stripped these boots off anyway, since repair was time consuming, among other reasons. i'll see if I can dig that info up as well.

Edit.. The reason for removal was damage to the boots inflicted during missions and the amount of time required to make the repair. If one section was damaged, it was removed and the corresponding section from the other wing was also removed.

JP


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[boris4356]

Wing icing and prop icing are in fact modeled in FSX.

If you have a good third party weather engine along with the ice gauge "icev10.zip", you will definitely see the effects of icing on the A2A B17. You will start slowing down, and loose altitude. I have experienced some heavy duty icing in my round the world travels. I use FS Global Real Weather, and it models icing well!

Here is an excerpt from the readme of the Ice Gauge by Charles (Dutch) Owen.

Icing in Microsoft Flight Simulator

In the real world of aviation whenever the temperatures dip and there's
moisture in the air, prudent pilots pay even closer attention to weather
reports and forecasts than usual. We all know that moisture plus freezing
equals ice, and ice is a potential killer of anyone who takes to the sky for
fun or profit in any size airplane from the lightest Cessna to the largest
Airbus. Tragically over the last century of powered flight thousands have
lost their lives to the sometimes mysterious and fickle properties of frozen
water that coated the airfoils of their machines, reducing lift to the point
that flight couldn't be sustained or controlled.

In the real world, no one but a fool ignores the possibility of ice. It
lurks in the clouds like a jungle cat, unseen but always potentially ready
to pounce -- with potentially lethal consequences.

But in the virtual world of Microsoft Flight Simulator, both FS2004 and FSX,
the sim pilot can take to the wintry skies anytime with no more worries than
the minor inconvenience of their indicated airspeed temporarily dropping to
zero (if they forgot to turn on the pitot heat); or, if in a piston airplane
a chance of a gradual power loss easily corrected with the H key for Carb
Heat. To be sure, both these are startling and potentially dangerous to the
new pilot who's never seen them before but to an experienced sim flyer these
are no real threat, just a part of the environment.

The great danger in the real world is structural icing, which can in extreme
cases all too quickly rob an airplane of the aerodynamics that enable it to
safely stay in the air. But structural icing seems such a remote threat in
the simulator that many sim pilots don't believe MSFS models it at all.

They are wrong. Structural icing is modelled in FS2004 and FSX, as is its
closely related cousin propeller icing. Not only are the effects of the
icing modelled, but tools exist to prevent icing or clear the airframe of
the virtual ice that's accumulated there.

So (you might ask skeptically) why haven't I ever seen any effects of
structural icing even when I fly through moisture-laden clouds with the air
temperatures below freezing?

The truth is that while icing is simulated the implementation is wimpy.
Structural icing does occur; in fact it's occurring anytime the pilot
perceives either pitot or carb icing. But there's no visualization of it at
all; and due to the conservative implementation the effects are usually so
subtle and short-lived that most pilots won't notice icing. Ironically
this is especially true if they use "real weather" in their simulation --
which almost all sim pilots dedicated enough to realism to be concerned
about icing do as a matter of course. (And I'm talking about third party
products here such as Active Sky as well as the built-in real weather option.)

It's time to plunge in and find out about how icing really works in the
simulator. Stay with me for the journey and you'll probably learn at least
a few things you didn't know -- and possibly more than a few!


The Problem
-----------

There are in fact four forms of icing in MSFS (2004 and FSX): pitot,
carburator, propeller, and structural. But in our report here we're mostly
talking about the last two. Neither the pitot nor the carb icing in the sim
is particularly realistic but at least their effects are obvious and easily
seen and, and if not dealt with properly the consequences won't be pleasant.
But because those two aren't so mysterious we're not going to waste further
time on them. Let's investigate the "hidden" (and therefore mysterious and
exciting) features of structural and propeller icing.

Where does ice come from in the real world? Obviously, from a combination
of moisture droplets unfrozen and floating in the air with the temperature
around them near or below freezing. A piece of cold metal cutting through
that freezing air can cause those droplets to condense around it to form
ice.

Where does ice come from in the simulator? From the 'icing' attribute that
is assigned to each atmospheric layer in a given simulation setup. The other
attributes you might think would bring on icing like cloud cover and
precipitation don't have anything to do with it. If the icing attribute is
set (whether by hand in your own set-up or automatically by the "real
weather" option in MSFS or ActiveSky for example) there'll be icing whenever
your airplane is in that layer (as long as the temperature at altitude is
below freezing), and if it's not set there won't be any icing regardless of
how likely icing looks like it should be from all the other parameters.
It's crucial to understand this: the icing attribute governs icing. And it
governs the entire layer it's defined in. The only other thing that matters
at all is temperature -- for icing to occur the temperature at the altitude
of the airplane must be below freezing.

The icing attribute has several levels of severity: none, trace, light,
moderate, and severe. This intensity level controls how fast ice build-up
will occur, and nothing more. It has nothing to do with how likely you are
to encounter ice -- you'll do that whenever you're in any layer than has an
intensity above "none" and a temp below zero, and you'll accumulate ice the
entire time you're in that layer. Whether you'll notice anything or not
depends on how high above "light" the intensity is set, and the
susceptability of your airplane to ice effects (they are not all the same!).

This is the first part of the problem. As you know, "real weather" (whether
or not it's built in or third party) sets each weather station based on the
contents of its most recent METAR, downloaded from servers on the internet.
These METARS do not normally include icing information. So, the "real
weather" programs make logical deductions based on the temperature and
moisture conditions and set the icing attribute based on a combination of
educated guesses and random factors. It seems from observation of the
built-in "real weather" system that it shys away from assigning the ice
attribute at all; and when it does, it rarely assigns moderate or severe
icing. The result is that while flying the pilot simply isn't likely to
encounter serious structural icing hazards. This is not entirely wrong:
serious icing isn't a common everyday occurance in real life either. This
rarity wouldn't be a problem if the actual effects of the relatively
unusual moderate or severe icing areas were realistic.

Alas, it's obvious from experimentation that in this area the ferocious
jungle cat of reality has been reduced to a toothless old tiger only able to
shake the bushes and then fall back asleep.

How do I know all this? A fair question. I don't have any inside
information from any of the programmers or designers at Microsoft. But I do
have a handy measurement tool called AFSD and some time to set up icing
conditions "by hand" and observe the effects. What I say here is based
mainly on my own careful research, supplimented here and there by the
internet reports of others that confirm what I've found.

AFSD is an external program that uses FSUIPC to retrieve some of the "inner
guts" of the sim and display them for all to see, in real time, as the sim
runs. It keeps track of dozens of variables, but we'll be mainly interested
in only three of them here, for simplicity. Those are TAS, Propeller
Efficiency, and something called "Ice Weight".

If you'd like to play along at home, here's the setup I use. I've turned
off all "real weather" and don't bring up any third party packages (such as
ASv6.5 which I use for all my "real" flying). It's also important to set
the option that your weather will apply to "all stations", otherwise, you'll
run out of your icing area while you area observing the measurements.

I define a single cloud layer that starts at 500 ft AGL and extends up to
10,000 feet. I set the temperature to slightly below freezing and I've
placed cloud coverage at 8/8 (overcast), precipitation at "none", turbulence
at "none", and icing to "severe". (Note that for icing purposes, the
parameters other than the icing attribute are not relevant, you can put
icing in a clear layer on a bright sunny day and your plane will ice up the
same as a cloudy or rainy day just as long as the temperature at altitude
(which is always less than the surface temp you set in the sim) is below
zero. Try it. I just like mine to look and feel plausible.)

I then take the airplane of choice that I'm testing (let's say the default
Cessna 172SP) and get ready to fly it up to about 1000 AGL. With the
airplane on the active ready for takeoff I save the situation as something
like "Ice Test 001" to make it easy to repeat. I then pause the sim and
start up the AFSD program (Google will help you find a copy of it if you'd
like, it's free).

Here's an important note about saved situations in regards to weather. Even
if you have the change rate slider set to "no change" when you re-load your
situation later the simulator feels free to tinker with the temperature,
turbulence, and icing settings. FS9 seems to hate icing so much that even
though you save your situation with the level set at Severe it'll usually
throttle it back it Light or Trace when you re-load. You have to check it
every time and set it back to Severe for the test.

Once AFSD has its little window showing click on the "start" button, then
select "Weight & COG" from the selection box and observe the airplane's
weight and balance information. Somewhere near the center is the "Ice
Weight", which will be zero because we're sitting on the ground here under
the severe icing layer.

Then it's time to do what no sane pilot would do: fly your little Cessna
up into a severe icing situation with no anti-icing equipment except a pitot
heater! But it's all in the interests of science and flight safety, you
know.

If you size your sim window so that you can watch the AFSD display alongside
the events in MSFS, the first thing you'll probably notice is that shortly
after entering the icing layer, the "Ice Weight" will increment to one
pound. Ice is starting to form! But you can neither see nor feel anything
in the sim. Yet. Level off somewhere in the ice layer (I use 1000 feet
AGL, 500 feet above the floor of the layer). I leave on full power because
that's an easy benchmark to duplicate in the Cessna. After levelling off
using the Autopilot, let the airspeed build up and stabilize. All the
while, if you watch, your "Ice Weight" will be slowly -- ever so slowly --
building up. The rate I've measured in the 172SP is 3 to 4 pounds per
minute! And this is Microsoft's version of "severe" icing! Later you can
try "moderate" or "light" to see an even slower accumulation.

Now, let's go to the AFSD window and change the selection from "Weight &
COG" to "Engine Data". Past halfway down the list of parameters we're
looking for "Propeller efficiency". You'll notice that this number is
steadily dropping as we fly along. It actually starts at about 79 percent,
and by ten minutes into the flight it'll be down to 48 percent. This is the
effect of propeller icing.

Now change selections once again, and go to the "Speeds" section. On there
will be True Air Speed (TAS). Look closely, and you'll see that this, too,
is slowly dropping. We are losing airspeed due to increasing drag and
decreasing thrust. This is, in fact, the only visible clue to the poor
pilot of the Cessna. Gradually, even though we don't decrease our power,
our airspeed is dropping! In fact, it drops quite dramatically over a ten
minute period.

At about the 20 minute point that our fearless Cessna with its foolhardly
pilot has been continously flown in severe icing conditions it will have
accumulated about 70 pounds of ice on the wings and propellors and its
airspeed and thrust will have slowed to the point where the pilot can no
longer maintain altitude even at maximum power. At that point your choice
is either controlled decent or a stall.

(A note here that not all airplanes accumulate ice so slowly. The rate of
accumulation corellates closely to the airplane's empty weight, I have
observed. At the five minute mark of severe icing, the typical plane will
have accumulated one percent of its empty weight as ice. By ten or so
minutes, the weight will be at two percent and the airplane's speed will
start to be seriously affected. Thereafter, the power of the engines
and the characteristics of the wings determine how long you still have
before falling slowly out of the sky. Some powerful airplanes can fly for a
very long while in severe icing!)

So you see, at it's worst, the simulator can inflict icing on you bad enough
to drop you out of the sky. Structural and propellor icing is indeed
modelled. But...

But we had to work hard to force it to be that nasty to us. Does anyone
believe that a 172 with no anti-icing could fly for 25 minutes in SEVERE
icing and still be airborne? And based on observed rates of accumulation in
moderate icing, it would take nearly twice as long to get to that dire
point. And anything below "moderate" might as well not be there at all.
Its only real effect in the sim seems to be to trigger pitot blockage
and carb heat trouble, the usual "hazards" that most experienced sim pilots
have seem a few times in winter.

Given the sparsity of severe or even moderate icing in the "real world"
weather in the sim it can be seen that almost every time you do encounter a
period of icing, you'll fly out of it almost before you even notice much of
an airspeed drop. And once the airplane is out of the icing zone, the ice
will quickly melt off (it always seems to melt quicker than it formed, much
quicker.)

And bear in mind, we deliberately chose an airplane with a severe
susceptability to ice. Larger, faster aircraft have much more of an airspeed
cushion, and can sustain an hour or more at severe icing levels without
doing anything more than slowing down.

It's no wonder at all that sim pilots, given no clear clue, often believe
there is no structural ice at all. And indeed, if it's never any threat,
why worry?

For the new or casual pilot who treats the sim like a game, it's great that
ice doesn't really do any more than bother you a little bit no matter how
severe it gets. But to sim pilots who love their experiences to be real
enough to have to be as concerned about all weather phenomenon as real-world
pilots are, this is disappointing. So sane commercial pilot simply takes
off IFR into potential icing conditions secure in the knowledge that nothing
really bad will happen. That should be the case in a realistic simulator
either, but in this case, unfortunantly, it isn't.

It's easy (once we understand how the model works) to see the reasons behind
the decision to make ice accumulation slow and to make serious ice rarely
present. In the real world threatening incing conditions are usually
limited in size and altitude and can be avoided or flown through with
anti-icing equipment. But in the sim, since ice is uniform for a whole
station and for a whole layer, and most airplanes don't have anti-icing
equipment that works the sim pilot would be potentialy faced with the
situation of an inescapable deathtrap anytime serious icing is present if
the model allowed for a fast buildup of ice. This would go to the other
extreme: an unrealistically high level of ice danger.

The result could easily be frustration, especially from newer and more
casual pilots; and frustration like that doesn't make for good word of
mouth to help the boxes fly off the shelves. The compromise was obviously
to back off on the rate (even of severe icing) and it's hard to argue once
you know all the factors.

Still, any serious sim flyer who wants to fly realistically longs to deal
with potential icing and its hazards just like real IFR pilots do. It's
hard not to feel that the way the sim does things is a missed opportunity
for greater realism, in a program that boasts on its package and advertising
about being "as real as it gets".

Is there anything we could do to make the situation more realistic without
going overboard and dropping every third winter flight out of the sky?

First let's review the ways that FS9 provides to deal with structural and
propeller icing.

Anti-icing tools in FS9
-----------------------

When compared to the basic attributes of real-world icing, the model of the
sim is actually not so far off. Real-world icing events often build slowly
and the only instrument indication is a gradual drop in airspeed with the
same power applied. Of course real pilots can see the ice on their wings,
and we sim pilots see nothing.

(By the way, if you are unsure of the way real-world icing happens and its
countermeasures, go to Google videos and search for the 37 minute NASA film
"Icing for Regional and Corporate Pilots". I highly recommend this film if
you've read this far into this report!)

Where the sim fails in structural icing is twofold: first, it blunts the
severity of the worse icing, making it safe to fly where it shouldn't be;
and secondly the only consequence it models is the slow strangulation of
the aircraft's power and lift. (Plus, let's admit here, that it also
increases the stall speed, so that it's possible for an ice-heavy plane to
stall on final unless extra speed is added ... this is very realistic.)

We know from stories and accident reports that real-world icing can result
in much worse things happening, such as uncommanded pitch and roll events
and/or stalls. The dreaded "fall from the sky." It has happened. Let's
pray it doesn't happen again in the non-virtual skies; but I wouldn't count
on it.

Most pilots, especially in the sim where equipment is almost free, would
rather fly aircraft that are "certified to fly into known icing conditions",
that is, those with a full set of anti-icing and de-icing equipment. This
would include the standard pitot and carb heat that's on almost every
default airplane in the sim (and almost all add-ons of course), plus it
should contain a propeller anti-icing system and a set of wing boot or
heater de-icers.

The simulator has these tools available to designers of airplanes, but sadly
(with two exceptions that I know of) all the default airplanes that come
with FS2004 or FSX either don't have controls implemented, or the switches
are dummies, or they are broken. Looking at some of the pitiful dummy code
in some of these anti-ice switches (for example the Baron) has probably
helped suggest to many simmers and designers that there's no real anti-ice
available, so therefore MS couldn't include a real icing simulation. Both
of these are false, there is real ice (as we've seen) and there's real
anti-ice and de-icing is at least potentially there (as we're about to see).

The problem (and apparently this was a problem internally at MS between the
sim designers and the default plane designers) is that the magic ingredients
required to get anti-ice systems to actually work aren't documented
anywhere. They had to be ferreted out of the sim by trial and error. I
didn't discover these secrets, but I'll document them here.

Designers and panel tinkerers, listen well. The rest of you can skip over
these details and proceed to the next section, "The Consequences of Icing"
if you're bored with technical details.

There are several gauge variables to test and set to implement prop and wing
de-icers, and these are fairly well known. What isn't quite as well
understood is what needs to be setup in the aircraft.cfg file and the .air
file.

Prop de-icing is addressed in the [propellers] section of the aircraft.cfg
file. There's a setting here called "Prop Deicers Available" with possible
values of 0 or 1. In order to have prop de-icing work on your airplane, you
must set this to 1.

There is no corresponding structural de-icing setting in the aircraft.cfg
file that I know about. None is mentioned in the SDK documentation (which
by itself proves nothing, quite a bit was "left out" of the official
Microsoft documentation for FS9!)

But the most important settings are in the .air file. If these are missing
or mis-configured (and this is the problem with many of the default FS9
airplanes) no matter if you have your aircraft.cfg settings correct and your
gauge code right: your plane won't de-ice until you have three special
records in the .air file.

These are, specifically, the 1513, 1518, and 1519 records. The 1513 record
contains two numbers. I do not know what these numbers represent but I know
that if this record is missing or the numbers are zero, de-icing won't work
on the airplane. On those default FS9 airplanes that have the 1513 record,
for jets the first value seems to be 1 and for all others it is .15; but it
doesn't seem to make a difference that I notice. I always use 1. The
second number always seems to be 18. So, if your airplane doesn't have a
1513 record, place one with values of 1 and 18 in the two numbers.

The 1518 and 1519 records are very simple. The 1518 is a switch with a
value of 0 or 1, that enables prop de-icing. This is a value that is
overridden by the setting in the aircraft.cfg. Obviously, set this to 1.
The 1519 controls wing de-icing. There are three possible values: 0, 1 or
2. Zero means no wing de-icing is available. I suspect that 1 or 2 selects
between the two common de-icing systems (heaters or boots), however, in
actual practice I can't see any difference in the results. So let's just
say that a non-zero value here enables wing de-icing.

That's all. Gauge code for prop or wing deicers should turn off or on the
appropriate variable. Flipping on the wing de-icers will immediately set
the "ice weight" value back to zero. The prop de-icer will usually restore
the prop efficiency back to a high range; although interestingly it will not
always restore it to the point where it was before the icing started.

To operate the equipment realistically, you should leave the prop anti-icers
on whenever the potential for icing is present -- it's supposed to be a
preventative measure to keep ice off your prop blades. And it will do this
in the sim. Wing de-icers on the other hand come in two types: heaters
that heat the leading edges to melt or prevent ice formation, and rubberized
boots that periodically expand to break the ice that's formed off. For the
heater type, operate it as you do the prop anti-ice. For the boot type,
cycle it on and off periodically during the icing period. In fact the sim
doesn't distinguish between the two as far as I can tell, so you get to
choose which any given airplane you're flying is supposed to have.


Consequences of Icing
---------------------

Since we know we have a potential way to fight our way through serious icing
layers in airplanes, we can turn our attention to the consequences of ice
buildup on the airfoil surfaces.

Severe icing is extraordinarily dangerous in the real world. Broadly it
comes in two major categories: "normal" ice and the dreaded SLD, or as it's
called in regular English, freezing rain.

Although many real world transport-category aircraft are certified for
flight into known icing conditions, none of them are certified for flight
into severe icing or freezing rain. Severe icing can build up fast.
Freezing rain is even worse, because it can quickly adhere to all the
airplane's surfaces, not just the leading edges of the wings. This places
it where no de-icing systems can touch it.

These are real hazards to IFR flight that every pilot must be aware of and
avoid, or handle as an emergency if avoidance doesn't work.

The consequences of icing on airframes involves the loss of lift, increased
drag, and a drop in thrust; all simulated (albeit too slowly) by FS9. But
real consequences also include wing and tailplane stalls brought on by ice
accumulation.

Wing stalls occur at slower speeds as the airflow over the wings, which is
disrupted by the ice, reaches a point where one wing loses significant lift.
The result is an uncommanded roll-over. The pilot's recovery action is much
like that with a regular stall: bring the wing back up and get some speed.
(Then get that ice off, or get out of the area, or both!)

The even deadlier form of wing stall is best described as "simply too much
ice". When the wings are coated deeply enough with clear ice, they just
can't generate enough lift to keep the airplane in the air any longer.

A tailspin stall is a different thing, and very difficult to handle. A
tailspin stall usually occurs at higher speeds when flaps are extended. The
flaps cause a nose-down tendency which normally the elevators compensate for
by raising the nose, thereby maintaining stability. However, an iced-up
elecator surface may not be be able to generate enough reverse lift to
compensate. The result is an uncommanded pitch-down of the aircraft which
feels very much like a conventional stall but the recovery is the opposite:
pull the nose up, reduce speed, and retract the flaps.

These are real killers, the secret or not-so-secret dread of every pilot
flying in clouds in cold temperatures, and FS9 doesn't simulate them at all,
much less realistically.

Can an add-on product do what the sim doesn't?

The Ice Gauge
-------------

I've developed and currently am testing a special gauge that can be easily
placed on the cockpit of any FS9 or FSX airplane. The gauge tries to
provide as much of the missing pieces of the icing puzzle as possible.

The gauge has two parts: an ice detector, and an ice simulator.

First, the detector is visible on the panel as a small, simple rectangle.
This rectangle remains dark as long as there is no "ice weight" on the
surface of the airplane. If any is detected, the legend "WING ICE" is
displayed in blue by the gauge. The detector monitors the ice level,
and once it reaches the one percent of empty weight that usually signals
the onset of real difficulty in the sim the blue color will change to
yellow. It will remain yellow until the weight reaches two percent of the
empty weight, in which case it turns red to signal maximum danger.

The second part, the ice simulator, is invisible on the panel. Its job is
to monitor the situation and provoke more serious consequences, and to
provide a simulation of freezing rain, which the FS9 sim doesn't do.

Here's how it works.

If the ice detector indicator is in the initial blue range, you have ice on
your airplane but you aren't in immediate danger -- yet. You should be able
to use your wing de-icers to keep the ice off as long as you aren't having
any freezing rain (see below). Once it turns yellow, you are subject to
wing and tailspin stalls. They may happen as described above. The
recoveries are as described, but they are difficult to execute if you are
close to the ground.

If the visual indicator is in the red range, you are subject to wing stalls
regardless of speed or flap settings. Leave your airplane in the red
range for long and you will stall. This is above and beyond the eventual
aerodynamic stall you'd receive from the built-in sim. It will be much more
dramatic and abrupt, and likely unrecoverable.

Don't let the ice detector into the red range. Fly out of the area if you
don't have ice removal equipment. Even if you do have it, you are not able
to completely relax. Because...

The ice simulator simulates freezing rain. Here's how that is done:

If ice starts to accumulate and the outside air temperature is between 0 and
-10 celsius, and there is rain (not snow), the ice simulator starts
accumulating a separate "ice weight" counter at roughly the same rate as the
regular counter. Here's the big difference: the airplane's de-icers will
remove the normal ice count, but they will not touch the freezing rain!
This special ice weight adds to the yellow and red conditions counters.

So, in freezing rain conditions (which should be obvious to the pilot --
rain is hitting your windshield and the ice gauge is saying WING ICE -- not
only will your ice weight increase at double speed, you can only clear at
most half of it. Once freezing rain weight alone gets you into the yellow
range, you are in very serious danger. If it gets up into the red, you are
near falling from the sky with no recourse except to try and find your way
out of the icing NOW and no recovery if you can't!

This can happen in real life, and with this gauge, it can happen in the sim.

Another sure indication of freezing rain is that the wing de-icers (boots or
heater) will no longer turn the WING ICE indication off. Your only
recourse, which exactly matches the real-world recourse, is to fly out of
the ice zone immediately. This could involve decending to lower
temperatures, or climbing above the clouds. Whatever it takes, you must get
out of the icing post haste! Of course, once you are out of the ice zone,
both the regular wing ice and the special freezing rain counters will "melt
off" pretty quickly.

Now, fellow sim pilots, with the ice gauge installed that toothless old
tiger is suddenly deadly again.

I hope that the addition of this Ice Gauge to an aircraft will much more
realistically re-create the very real threats to flight safely that ice
poses, by supplimenting the slow-acting built-in ice simulation of FS9.

It does not, however, increase the likelihood of ice being present in any
cloud layers. To do that, be sure if you are using either ActiveSky or
FSUIPC, that the options in both products to suppress icing are turned
OFF. FSUIPC includes an option to turn on random icing in clouds -- you
may want to use that to increase the ice you may encounter, particularly
if you're using the "real world" weather in the sim without a weather
generator add-on.

The goal isn't to turn winter flying into some kind of game with exaggerated
threats of icing. The goal is to get the sim pilot to respect icing in
exactly the same way and for the same reasons as a real-world pilot. As in
the real world, ice can be dealt with and/or avoided. But you can no longer
just ignore it.

Happy flying! Whether real or virtual. I hope this report has helped you
to understand a little-understood part of the simulator we have so much fun
with.


The gauge is available at:

http://library.avsim.net/search.php?Sea ... &Go=Search


Bill

[Jacques]

Bill,
Thanks for the link! This sounds very interesting.

JP


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[Avio]

Thanks for the heads-up, Boris. That was an interesting article. Downloaded the Ice gauge and hope to test it out soon.

About the Anti-Icer gauge, in the manual it said Anti-Icer FLUID, which I originally assumed it to be liquid instead of air fluid. So that refers to wing-deicer boot pressure.

What about the prop deice? Is it by electric heating? If so, I wonder is the current draw simulated.

Avio

[Avio]

For the wing deice, since it uses pneumatic air pressure, I wonder does A2A B-17 simulates the need to cycle the wing deice boots periodically to break off ice formation, or would just leaving the wing deice switch to ON all the way be sufficient to get rid of ice (in this B-17 sim).

Avio

[boris4356]

Bill,
Thanks for the link! This sounds very interesting.

JP


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Your welcome JP!

Bill

[boris4356]

Thanks for the heads-up, Boris. That was an interesting article. Downloaded the Ice gauge and hope to test it out soon.

About the Anti-Icer gauge, in the manual it said Anti-Icer FLUID, which I originally assumed it to be liquid instead of air fluid. So that refers to wing-deicer boot pressure.

What about the prop deice? Is it by electric heating? If so, I wonder is the current draw simulated.

Avio

Your welcome Avio!

I have used the ice gauge for quite some time now, and it really adds to the realism.

I'm not sure about the technical details of how the wing ice and prop ice work.

Bill

[boris4356]

For the wing deice, since it uses pneumatic air pressure, I wonder does A2A B-17 simulates the need to cycle the wing deice boots periodically to break off ice formation, or would just leaving the wing deice switch to ON all the way be sufficient to get rid of ice (in this B-17 sim).

Avio

I usually cycle the wing deice boots periodically to break off ice formation using the wing ice warning gauge as guidence. I have forgotten at times to shut it off though, and haven't had any issues, so I don't know if this is built into the accusim system or not.

Bill

[Jacques]

Hi Bill and Avio,

I looked in the .cfg file for the B-17 and both prop de icing and wing de icing are enabled as far as the .cfg file. I don't think I'm going to try and get into the .air file to see what values are placed after the 1513, 1518 and 1519 records, but if all these have been enabled, then de icing is functional in the B-17.

With regards to the boots, the report indicated that no matter what type of wing de icing is used, once the switch is activated it commands the simultaneous removal of ice. So turn it on, then turn it off and its all gone, and will accumulate gradually again. I assume if you simply leave it on it continually "sheds" the ice so there is no build-up. He did indicate that this was not true for prop de icing, which is preventative in nature, so it should be switched on when icing is anticipated. It does not always restore efficiency of the prop to the level it was before icing has occured.

Since there is no"reservoir" in the sim to replenish icing fluid, I guess we can assume that it is a continuous supply.
Wish I didn't have to go to work tomorrow...I'd like to play with this some more!

JP


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[DavidHerky]

A very interesting thread. In fact all you guys on the forum are very knowledgeable. Its refreshing to be amongst pilots!

I hope I can add my two penneth here.

The original question about ILS frequencies. If I may suggest something I use all the time in every simulation and not just the specially scripted sims like NGX.

Its MCE or Multi Crew Experience.

MCE in use on the B17 controls many functions. For example, if you say "Set 111.15 on Nav one" , the co pilot will set it for you. The same applies with ADF, Squawk or ATC frequency, Com1, in fact, every item on the radios can be set by your MCE co-pilot. Confirm by Shift+6. This is very useful, as any real world Captain will attest.

Co-pilot can also raise the gear and flaps. Other controls have to be scripted. Either by you or the MCE guys can help. The support is excellent.

Now the subject of ice.

The wing anti ice boot pressure shows 8 psi on idle, on the ground, if its activated.

Again activate this with MCE by saying "Wing Anti Ice on/Off". Although not realistic in the ship, since the switch is on your (left hand seat) side and I cant see the co-pilot reaching over you to action the switch. But its nice to know this works also. MCE co-pilot will reply "Anti Ice on/off" and throw the switch!


The propeller de ice may not yet be modelled with MCE. If you say " Anti ice on", the co-pilot replies "engine anti ice one, two, three, four, switched on". I am unsure as to what he is switching on. If its in the cfg and air files then he may well be activating the "propeller anti ice". Since "Engine anti ice" is not fitted to the B17. That's one for the MCE support, I bet they could model that for us!


Now the gauge utility from Avsim? Has anyone tried it? Does it work with our A2A b17 or is it for FS9 simple native aircraft? Is it just a visual effect or is the Accusim model initiating a simulated ice build up by a loss of performance and lift?

I use REX HD+ for weather and get very good ice formation in the PMDG J41 and the F1 Mustang (both model ice). I have not had time to test it in the Fort.

I will do a test flight tomorrow and try to summon up some ice. (The weather in the Cairngorms for tomorrow is for snow, and its only October!)

Best Regards,

David.



EDIT. Bill, I have downloaded the ICE gauge, as per your link, installed it as per the readme, but have no gauge present in the cockpit. Is not the gauge meant for FS9 Cessna ? (Microsoft basic) Since that has 2d panels. We don't have 2d panels in the A2A B17? So where would the Ice indicator panel appear?


Also I just flew over the Cairngorms, Scotland. It was snowing at around 0 degrees and no ice formed on any surfaces. Warmed up on descent from 10,000, through to 5C. It should have iced up somewhere. Has this been seen by you with our FSX A2A B17?

By the way the crew commented on the foul weather outside, think they said "Captain its really puttin' it down out there"......

[boris4356]

A very interesting thread. In fact all you guys on the forum are very knowledgeable. Its refreshing to be amongst pilots!

I hope I can add my two penneth here.

The original question about ILS frequencies. If I may suggest something I use all the time in every simulation and not just the specially scripted sims like NGX.

Its MCE or Multi Crew Experience.

MCE in use on the B17 controls many functions. For example, if you say "Set 111.15 on Nav one" , the co pilot will set it for you. The same applies with ADF, Squawk or ATC frequency, Com1, in fact, every item on the radios can be set by your MCE co-pilot. Confirm by Shift+6. This is very useful, as any real world Captain will attest.

Co-pilot can also raise the gear and flaps. Other controls have to be scripted. Either by you or the MCE guys can help. The support is excellent.

Now the subject of ice.

The wing anti ice boot pressure shows 8 psi on idle, on the ground, if its activated.

Again activate this with MCE by saying "Wing Anti Ice on/Off". Although not realistic in the ship, since the switch is on your (left hand seat) side and I cant see the co-pilot reaching over you to action the switch. But its nice to know this works also. MCE co-pilot will reply "Anti Ice on/off" and throw the switch!


The propeller de ice may not yet be modelled with MCE. If you say " Anti ice on", the co-pilot replies "engine anti ice one, two, three, four, switched on". I am unsure as to what he is switching on. If its in the cfg and air files then he may well be activating the "propeller anti ice". Since "Engine anti ice" is not fitted to the B17. That's one for the MCE support, I bet they could model that for us!


Now the gauge utility from Avsim? Has anyone tried it? Does it work with our A2A b17 or is it for FS9 simple native aircraft? Is it just a visual effect or is the Accusim model initiating a simulated ice build up by a loss of performance and lift?

I use REX HD+ for weather and get very good ice formation in the PMDG J41 and the F1 Mustang (both model ice). I have not had time to test it in the Fort.

I will do a test flight tomorrow and try to summon up some ice. (The weather in the Cairngorms for tomorrow is for snow, and its only October!)

Best Regards,

David.



EDIT. Bill, I have downloaded the ICE gauge, as per your link, installed it as per the readme, but have no gauge present in the cockpit. Is not the gauge meant for FS9 Cessna ? (Microsoft basic) Since that has 2d panels. We don't have 2d panels in the A2A B17? So where would the Ice indicator panel appear?


Also I just flew over the Cairngorms, Scotland. It was snowing at around 0 degrees and no ice formed on any surfaces. Warmed up on descent from 10,000, through to 5C. It should have iced up somewhere. Has this been seen by you with our FSX A2A B17?

By the way the crew commented on the foul weather outside, think they said "Captain its really puttin' it down out there"......

Hi David,

You will not see an actual gauge in the panel until ice is detected. Then you will see a square with "WING ICE" in blue, yellow, or red. If it is installed correctly, it will work in the FSX A2A B17 and other FSX aircraft. I have seen icing many times. I have had it go into the yellow, and if I didn't get out of the layer, it would have gone into the red, and I would have lost my aircraft.

I have a physical cockpit, so I don't use the VC. I have it installed in my 2D gauge panel.

When you installed it, it may have gone into one of the cfgs for the multiple B17 windows, and unless you had that window open at the time you wouldn't see it. You should have felt the effects though if the conditions for icing were right. The A/C gets slower, and sluggish.

It may be possible to install it in the VC. I have Flight Sim Panel Studio, and if I get some time, I will try and see if it can be done.

Bill