Modified flight model

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HE11DUDE04
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Modified flight model

Post HE11DUDE04 »

I made some adjustments to the B-17s airfile which means the aircraft now yaws in a turn without needing enormous amounts of rudder input, and as a bonus I included a little cfg edit which makes the propellers not overspeed on takeoff.

Thanks to iflyc77 (Curt) and Corsair016 for testing it out for me!

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fiu9gluol0j5 ... 8y5sa?dl=0
The readme.txt files should explain the installation process adequately but if anyone wanting to try it has any issues just post here. :)
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Paughco
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Re: Modified flight model

Post Paughco »

I tried the mod on my B-17 and it works like a champ. Flew IFR from Fairchild AFB (KSKA) to the B-17s home, Boeing Field (KBFI). Greased it in. Very happy.

Seeya
ATB
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HE11DUDE04
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Re: Modified flight model

Post HE11DUDE04 »

Paughco wrote:
31 Dec 2021, 00:06
I tried the mod on my B-17 and it works like a champ. Flew IFR from Fairchild AFB (KSKA) to the B-17s home, Boeing Field (KBFI). Greased it in. Very happy.

Seeya
ATB
That's great to hear!
I've found myself flying it more often and enjoying it more now that it behaves more like it should.
I remember the flight manual mentioning that you need to be careful to keep it level when flying on instruments, as it'll change heading quite easily and now that applies to the sim.
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DHenriquesA2A
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Re: Modified flight model

Post DHenriquesA2A »

HE11DUDE04 wrote:
31 Dec 2021, 05:44
Paughco wrote:
31 Dec 2021, 00:06
I tried the mod on my B-17 and it works like a champ. Flew IFR from Fairchild AFB (KSKA) to the B-17s home, Boeing Field (KBFI). Greased it in. Very happy.

Seeya
ATB
That's great to hear!
I've found myself flying it more often and enjoying it more now that it behaves more like it should.
I remember the flight manual mentioning that you need to be careful to keep it level when flying on instruments, as it'll change heading quite easily and now that applies to the sim.
Just be aware that a B17 DOES require a considerable amount of rudder entering and exiting a turn . Flying a B17 or any plane that size and made during that period was and remains a physical experience for the pilot.
Our flight models reflect this factor of accuracy and realism.

Dudley Henriques

HE11DUDE04
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Re: Modified flight model

Post HE11DUDE04 »

DHenriquesA2A wrote:
31 Dec 2021, 12:09

Just be aware that a B17 DOES require a considerable amount of rudder entering and exiting a turn . Flying a B17 or any plane that size and made during that period was and remains a physical experience for the pilot.
Our flight models reflect this factor of accuracy and realism.

Dudley Henriques

Dudley, I'd like to assure you that a LOT of research went into this and it isn't just a case of me finding the aircraft hard to fly or something like that.
I'd also like to mention that the B-17 manual actually says that the aircraft is capable of turning with aileron control ONLY however, when using the a2a flight model this is impossible.

I agree that the B-17 and similar types would need lots of rudder compared to smaller aircraft and this is replicated in my flight model but I think and my research shows that a2a took this a bit too far.


Have a happy new year!
-Memey
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DHenriquesA2A
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Re: Modified flight model

Post DHenriquesA2A »

HE11DUDE04 wrote:
31 Dec 2021, 14:03
DHenriquesA2A wrote:
31 Dec 2021, 12:09

Just be aware that a B17 DOES require a considerable amount of rudder entering and exiting a turn . Flying a B17 or any plane that size and made during that period was and remains a physical experience for the pilot.
Our flight models reflect this factor of accuracy and realism.

Dudley Henriques

Dudley, I'd like to assure you that a LOT of research went into this and it isn't just a case of me finding the aircraft hard to fly or something like that.
I'd also like to mention that the B-17 manual actually says that the aircraft is capable of turning with aileron control ONLY however, when using the a2a flight model this is impossible.

I agree that the B-17 and similar types would need lots of rudder compared to smaller aircraft and this is replicated in my flight model but I think and my research shows that a2a took this a bit too far.


Have a happy new year!
-Memey
If you like it that way.......by all means.
DH

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Paughco
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Re: Modified flight model

Post Paughco »

DHenriquesA2A wrote:
31 Dec 2021, 12:09

Just be aware that a B17 DOES require a considerable amount of rudder entering and exiting a turn. Flying a B17 or any plane that size and made during that period was and remains a physical experience for the pilot.
Our flight models reflect this factor of accuracy and realism.

Dudley Henriques
Thank you for the words of wisdom, Dudley.

I saw Memey's posting of the mod and didn't jump on it right away, for the exact reason you stated above. Then, we were on a Misfit Squadron A2A flight, flying T-6s, I believe, and iflyc77 (Curt) was flying with us. He regularly flies a B-24 and has stick time in a B-17 and a B-29. I asked him about the rudder mod, and he says that it brings the rudder operation during turning closer to that in the B-17 that he flies. I don't take changes to the A2A model lightly. OK, I confess that I tweaked the aircraft.cfg file on my B-17 to allow for a steerable tailwheel, using the same option as comes with my MJ C-47. And I figured out how to replace the standard GPS with my RXP GTN 750.

I'm still waiting for an A2A B-25 and an A2A Cessna 180 or 185. :roll:

Thank you
ATB
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DHenriquesA2A
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Re: Modified flight model

Post DHenriquesA2A »

Paughco wrote:
31 Dec 2021, 16:49
DHenriquesA2A wrote:
31 Dec 2021, 12:09

Just be aware that a B17 DOES require a considerable amount of rudder entering and exiting a turn. Flying a B17 or any plane that size and made during that period was and remains a physical experience for the pilot.
Our flight models reflect this factor of accuracy and realism.

Dudley Henriques
Thank you for the words of wisdom, Dudley.

I saw Memey's posting of the mod and didn't jump on it right away, for the exact reason you stated above. Then, we were on a Misfit Squadron A2A flight, flying T-6s, I believe, and iflyc77 (Curt) was flying with us. He regularly flies a B-24 and has stick time in a B-17 and a B-29. I asked him about the rudder mod, and he says that it brings the rudder operation during turning closer to that in the B-17 that he flies. I don't take changes to the A2A model lightly. OK, I confess that I tweaked the aircraft.cfg file on my B-17 to allow for a steerable tailwheel, using the same option as comes with my MJ C-47. And I figured out how to replace the standard GPS with my RXP GTN 750.

I'm still waiting for an A2A B-25 and an A2A Cessna 180 or 185. :roll:

Thank you
ATB
I have to admit I haven't flown a B17 personally but as part of my real world aviation work I do speak to pilots who fly them on a fairly regular basis. They all seem to agree that the 17 was a handful when maneuvering.
Had the opportunity to go fly a 17 once with a museum that operated one but couldn't go that weekend. Wish I had gone and have always regretted missing the chance to fly the old girl.
DH

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iflyc77
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Re: Modified flight model

Post iflyc77 »

DHenriquesA2A wrote:
31 Dec 2021, 17:10
Paughco wrote:
31 Dec 2021, 16:49
DHenriquesA2A wrote:
31 Dec 2021, 12:09

Just be aware that a B17 DOES require a considerable amount of rudder entering and exiting a turn. Flying a B17 or any plane that size and made during that period was and remains a physical experience for the pilot.
Our flight models reflect this factor of accuracy and realism.

Dudley Henriques
Thank you for the words of wisdom, Dudley.

I saw Memey's posting of the mod and didn't jump on it right away, for the exact reason you stated above. Then, we were on a Misfit Squadron A2A flight, flying T-6s, I believe, and iflyc77 (Curt) was flying with us. He regularly flies a B-24 and has stick time in a B-17 and a B-29. I asked him about the rudder mod, and he says that it brings the rudder operation during turning closer to that in the B-17 that he flies. I don't take changes to the A2A model lightly. OK, I confess that I tweaked the aircraft.cfg file on my B-17 to allow for a steerable tailwheel, using the same option as comes with my MJ C-47. And I figured out how to replace the standard GPS with my RXP GTN 750.

I'm still waiting for an A2A B-25 and an A2A Cessna 180 or 185. :roll:

Thank you
ATB
I have to admit I haven't flown a B17 personally but as part of my real world aviation work I do speak to pilots who fly them on a fairly regular basis. They all seem to agree that the 17 was a handful when maneuvering.
Had the opportunity to go fly a 17 once with a museum that operated one but couldn't go that weekend. Wish I had gone and have always regretted missing the chance to fly the old girl.
DH
I don't have any 17 time, but with 150 hours in the B29 I can say that it requires a lot of rudder to enter the turn, and the A2A model represents that well. The people that I know who have flown both say that they handle virtually the same at cruise speed, and that is like any other Boeing product really. Rock solid, stable, and honest.

Where the A2A model falls short and ruined the immersion for me - is how you need to maintain that rudder through the entire turn. I have never flown any airplane where that was the case. A sustained 45 degree bank turn requires almost full rudder to maintain coordination. The B29 is not like that at all, and I have spent a lot of time flying trail behind B17s in the B24 during airshows and have never noticed them holding almost full rudder (which would be very visible from 1000ft trail) during our duster style 90/270 repositioning turns.

I definitely like the work that Memey has done and it makes me want to fly the B-17 a lot more now than before! He also figured out how to fix the prop overspeed on takeoff in the aircraft.cfg which I appreciate as well.

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DHenriquesA2A
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Re: Modified flight model

Post DHenriquesA2A »

iflyc77 wrote:
31 Dec 2021, 17:36
DHenriquesA2A wrote:
31 Dec 2021, 17:10
Paughco wrote:
31 Dec 2021, 16:49


Thank you for the words of wisdom, Dudley.

I saw Memey's posting of the mod and didn't jump on it right away, for the exact reason you stated above. Then, we were on a Misfit Squadron A2A flight, flying T-6s, I believe, and iflyc77 (Curt) was flying with us. He regularly flies a B-24 and has stick time in a B-17 and a B-29. I asked him about the rudder mod, and he says that it brings the rudder operation during turning closer to that in the B-17 that he flies. I don't take changes to the A2A model lightly. OK, I confess that I tweaked the aircraft.cfg file on my B-17 to allow for a steerable tailwheel, using the same option as comes with my MJ C-47. And I figured out how to replace the standard GPS with my RXP GTN 750.

I'm still waiting for an A2A B-25 and an A2A Cessna 180 or 185. :roll:

Thank you
ATB
I have to admit I haven't flown a B17 personally but as part of my real world aviation work I do speak to pilots who fly them on a fairly regular basis. They all seem to agree that the 17 was a handful when maneuvering.
Had the opportunity to go fly a 17 once with a museum that operated one but couldn't go that weekend. Wish I had gone and have always regretted missing the chance to fly the old girl.
DH
I don't have any 17 time, but with 150 hours in the B29 I can say that it requires a lot of rudder to enter the turn, and the A2A model represents that well. The people that I know who have flown both say that they handle virtually the same at cruise speed, and that is like any other Boeing product really. Rock solid, stable, and honest.

Where the A2A model falls short and ruined the immersion for me - is how you need to maintain that rudder through the entire turn. I have never flown any airplane where that was the case. A sustained 45 degree bank turn requires almost full rudder to maintain coordination. The B29 is not like that at all, and I have spent a lot of time flying trail behind B17s in the B24 during airshows and have never noticed them holding almost full rudder (which would be very visible from 1000ft trail) during our duster style 90/270 repositioning turns.

I definitely like the work that Memey has done and it makes me want to fly the B-17 a lot more now than before! He also figured out how to fix the prop overspeed on takeoff in the aircraft.cfg which I appreciate as well.
In a 45 degree turn, once bank has been established, no rudder should be necessary to maintain that turn. There is underbanking tendency in a shallow turn and over banking tendency in steep turns. This is fairly standard in all airplanes.
I would say that if rudder has to be maintained in a medium banked turn in the 17, something is amiss, either with the controller or with the flight model.
DH

alan CXA651
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Re: Modified flight model

Post alan CXA651 »

Hi.
I have not found the need to change A2A flight dynamics on any of thier aircraft , but i have found this artical on the fort with regards to flight controls .
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... l0pXn17jEs

scroll down to the heading CO-PILOT TAKES HIS TURN , where he says the turn leads with rudder and controls are heavy , i have my controls set in FSUIPC to give a heavy feel and use CH yoke and rudder peddles , and never had problems getting a co-ordinated turn in the fort .
regards Alan. 8)
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WB_FlashOver
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Re: Modified flight model

Post WB_FlashOver »

I'm coming up on 1500 hours in the A2A B17 and the rudder does indeed need extreme deflection throughout the turn. I find myself using way too much rudder when I jump in the Comanche or the P-51 or other A2A AC. The Connie seems to require some rudder control throughout the turn but not like the B17.

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HE11DUDE04
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Re: Modified flight model

Post HE11DUDE04 »

I found a small bug with my flight model so have updated it and the original link should now give you the newest one.
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tonytheflyer
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Re: Modified flight model

Post tonytheflyer »

I actually reported this issue here years ago: Rudder Coordination and Crosswind Landings. Scott even replied and said they’d look into it. But so far, no updates have addressed it as far as I can tell.

This does help some; it’s definitely better, but it still doesn’t feel “natural,” like a real plane or even other A2A planes feel rolling in and out of a turn. I also still can’t keep it on centerline with a 10-15 knot crosswind.

I realize that older planes need a lot of rudder rolling into and out of a turn, and maybe you might need to lead with rudder when rolling into a turn. But once established at a bank angle with the ailerons neutral, no airplane should need more than a touch (if at all) of rudder to maintain coordinated flight.

I’ve seen this same issue before on other airplanes in FSX, even on a few other payware ones, like Flight1’s BN-2, and Captain Sim’s B732 (coincidentally, both multi-engine airplanes) so it seems to be an inherent glitch in FSX flight modeling. However, no other A2A airplanes I have (Cub, C172, C182, PA24, PA28, and V35) behave like the B-17 in yaw, they all behave just like a real airplane based on my RL experience. I love flying all my other A2A planes, but the B-17 I don’t fly as much because of this.

HE11DUDE04
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Re: Modified flight model

Post HE11DUDE04 »

tonytheflyer wrote:
13 Jun 2022, 15:02
I actually reported this issue here years ago: Rudder Coordination and Crosswind Landings. Scott even replied and said they’d look into it. But so far, no updates have addressed it as far as I can tell.

This does help some; it’s definitely better, but it still doesn’t feel “natural,” like a real plane or even other A2A planes feel rolling in and out of a turn. I also still can’t keep it on centerline with a 10-15 knot crosswind.

I realize that older planes need a lot of rudder rolling into and out of a turn, and maybe you might need to lead with rudder when rolling into a turn. But once established at a bank angle with the ailerons neutral, no airplane should need more than a touch (if at all) of rudder to maintain coordinated flight.

I’ve seen this same issue before on other airplanes in FSX, even on a few other payware ones, like Flight1’s BN-2, and Captain Sim’s B732 (coincidentally, both multi-engine airplanes) so it seems to be an inherent glitch in FSX flight modeling. However, no other A2A airplanes I have (Cub, C172, C182, PA24, PA28, and V35) behave like the B-17 in yaw, they all behave just like a real airplane based on my RL experience. I love flying all my other A2A planes, but the B-17 I don’t fly as much because of this.
I know what you mean and had actually tweaked it to make it more natural feeling. I forgot to update the file on dropbox so you should be able to get that one now if you redownload it.
Also bear in mind I'm not a pro flight modeller, I just managed to make a gash adjustment to make it more tolerable.
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