Scott,
Thanks for pursuing your love of aviation. I'm with you pal!
http://www.simhq.com/_air10/air_305a.html
gx007
Flying Tigers Sim Article - WHY I LOVE THIS GUY NAMED SCOTT
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BTW, the article mentions Japanese ZERO pilots. Let's hope that this was some hyperbole on the part of the author as the AVG never fought the Zero - or the IJN for that matter - they fough the IJA.
Finally, Dan Ford's excellent book, "Flying Tigers: Claire Chennault and
His American Volunteers, 1941-1942" is being re-issued this August in a new updated addition.
http://www.flyingtigersbook.com/index.htm
Let's hope that Shockwave makes use of the data in this book.
Finally, Dan Ford's excellent book, "Flying Tigers: Claire Chennault and
His American Volunteers, 1941-1942" is being re-issued this August in a new updated addition.
http://www.flyingtigersbook.com/index.htm
Let's hope that Shockwave makes use of the data in this book.
The ORIGINAL Barkhorn.
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Hi barkhornBarkhorn1x wrote:BTW, the article mentions Japanese ZERO pilots. Let's hope that this was some hyperbole on the part of the author as the AVG never fought the Zero - or the IJN for that matter - they fought the IJA.
Finally, Dan Ford's excellent book, "Flying Tigers: Claire Chennault and
His American Volunteers, 1941-1942" is being re-issued this August in a new updated addition.
http://www.flyingtigersbook.com/index.htm
Let's hope that Shockwave makes use of the data in this book.
Well, like you say, that this was Chuck Bellows writing the article, not Scott Most people still beleive the AVG fought 'Zeroes' and in fact the AVG was under this impression at the time. We know now that they were Ki-43s...but Chuck made a mistake is all- he's just the reporter as it were. If Scott had written the article I'm sure that a differnt term would have been used
Same goes for the aircraft- a P-40N Kittyhawk, which the AVG never flew. many things on the N model are similar enough to the E models that the AVG had so that using an "N" for reference is no trouble...what I worry a touch about is the "P40-B" business.
The US Army actually called the planes the AVG had P-40Bs. But what they called them and what they really were is not so cut and dried
I am sure Scott knows this, and I hope that the dev team realises this, but the USAAF put P-40B stencil blocks on the fuselages of ex-AVG early-mark aircraft, after July 4th 1942
The USAAF did this because they had no stencil blocks- which makes perfect sense, because these planes were not P-40Bs at all. Curtiss identified them as "H81-3A" aircraft on the assembly line at one point, which is now recognised as either a typographical error, or an unuccessful attempt to give the aircraft a distinct model number, unique among the Export aircraft that Curtiss was making for the RAF- these planes were not P-40Bs, although they look similar externally so much it's almost impossible to tell
P-40Bs had different equipment, very possibly including the type of self sealing fuel tanks used. AVG planes had a different gunsight than the P-40B, made in Burma by AVG engineering section personnel. They also didn't have military radios in AVG planes. Then there is the armament- some sources cite various wing guns on select planes, including .303 caliber weapons, not .30s. And of course, there is the can of worms that is the engine output for the pplanes...was it the standard Allison> some sources say "no". other sources say "yes". Still others say that the engines in the planes were standard, but that the 50 replacement engiens the AVG were allotted made more power than standar engines. Researching THAT is a nightmare! Erik Shilling was adamant that he had a manifold pressure rating for a few minutes that equalled roughly 1700 horsepower. Was he right? Was he wrong? How much was he wrong? Who knows?
But the AVG planes themselves were in fact part of some export model blocks for the RAF- which means the planes were Hawk 81s, not any type of P-40s, although in fact the AVG called them P-40s
The RAF H81A-2s that ended up going to "China" (actually they all went to Rangoon for assembly, and they dropped one in the harbor while it was crated up- it was recovered and used for parts) for the AVG were part of a redirected shipment intended for the RAF. The colors and even the camoflage patterns of the aircraft bear this out- the camo pattern has "cut-outs" for RAF roundels. Reportedly, even the RAF "A" and "B" camo pattern was used on these planes- some had a "mirror image" camo pattern in which the left and right camo pattern were the same- just which side was mirrored, I still cannot say! I assume it was the port side, based on photos- I've never seen the RAF roundel cut-out on the port side in any photos
Osprey has a wonderful edition now, it's #41 "American Volunteer Group Colours and markings" that I highly recommend to anyone itnerested in the AVG
There is also a great reference, called the "Pictorial History of the AVG" which i do not have yet, which is crammed full of actual photos, and written by somebody who was really there in '41` and '42
Ford is a great researcher. many real Tigers dislike his treatment of their story and a few of their members, and I wonder at why he does some things in the manner he does them- but I cannot deny that he has unearthed a trove of raw facts about the AVG that in and of itself is an incredible body of work
I am very interested if Scott and his team will go into the time after the AVG disbanded in teh sim, and include some 23rd FG content
To all the Mothers and the Sisters and the Wives and the Friends, I want to offer my love and respect to the end
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Hey Chris!
Excellent information! and the AVG Osprey book IS a cut above even their usually excellent stuff as it is not so much a recounting of the air battles of the AVG as detailed description of the organizational structure of the group w/ in-depth detail on the various color schemes used.
Scott:
I heartily recommend reaching out to Chris as his skin work on Il-2 is really well researched - AND well done.
Barkhorn.
Excellent information! and the AVG Osprey book IS a cut above even their usually excellent stuff as it is not so much a recounting of the air battles of the AVG as detailed description of the organizational structure of the group w/ in-depth detail on the various color schemes used.
Scott:
I heartily recommend reaching out to Chris as his skin work on Il-2 is really well researched - AND well done.
Barkhorn.
The ORIGINAL Barkhorn.
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Scott knows me, more or less
We had played phone tag a bit over the winter- frustrating for the both of us
But I am an amateur historian, with more free time than Scott. Although I know a fair bit about the AVG, the info is out there, and Scott can find it. I still would however be more than happy to lend a hand, even as just a quick reality check or an outside-the-team opinion or two. I daresay the dev team has time to make necessary changes if the need arises, with or without my help
We had played phone tag a bit over the winter- frustrating for the both of us
But I am an amateur historian, with more free time than Scott. Although I know a fair bit about the AVG, the info is out there, and Scott can find it. I still would however be more than happy to lend a hand, even as just a quick reality check or an outside-the-team opinion or two. I daresay the dev team has time to make necessary changes if the need arises, with or without my help
To all the Mothers and the Sisters and the Wives and the Friends, I want to offer my love and respect to the end
Perhaps the most factual book about the "Tigers", which delineates not only the organizational structure, but also such details as the origin of the sharksteeth and other markings of the P40 B and later versions of the P40 in that unit, is :
"THE MAVERICK WAR...Chennault and the Flying Tigers"
Written by Duane Schultz, Copyright 1987
St. Martin's Press, 175 Fifth Avenue, New York, N.Y. 10010
From the standpoint of designing an historically correct combat flight simulation; it traces the airfield localities of the three squadrons, fom the initial arrival of the personnel in the Theater, to the moment of dissolution of the organization.
Additionally, the book covers the sequential operations of the AVG at each locality including initial training as well as their major combat sorties, mentioning each locality by name, and giving losses and combat results.
The mission of the organizatio is set forth, as welll as the tactics Chennault had developed to accomoplish it.
In short, it provides a roadmap for a combat flight simulation designer .
Most important, it tells it like it was, with no hype.
"THE MAVERICK WAR...Chennault and the Flying Tigers"
Written by Duane Schultz, Copyright 1987
St. Martin's Press, 175 Fifth Avenue, New York, N.Y. 10010
From the standpoint of designing an historically correct combat flight simulation; it traces the airfield localities of the three squadrons, fom the initial arrival of the personnel in the Theater, to the moment of dissolution of the organization.
Additionally, the book covers the sequential operations of the AVG at each locality including initial training as well as their major combat sorties, mentioning each locality by name, and giving losses and combat results.
The mission of the organizatio is set forth, as welll as the tactics Chennault had developed to accomoplish it.
In short, it provides a roadmap for a combat flight simulation designer .
Most important, it tells it like it was, with no hype.
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Charlie Bond is mentioned on 43 pages in the book, Scott. Shultz used many quotes from his diary He, for example , suggested that the sharksteeth be painted on the noses of the planes after seeing it on a picture of a British Tomahawk.Scott - Shockwave wrote:A/C - thanks for the book recommendation.
I had the privilege and honor to speak with Charlie Bond. I highly recommend reading his diary - it's a great book - a must read.
The Flying Tigers Diary by Charles Bond
ISBN: 0-89096-408-4
Scott.
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Chris_Blair wrote:Shultz lists the aircraft as P-40Bs, A/C?
Shulttz had this to say about the planes initially provided to the AVG ...
"The British agreed to waive delivery on 100 P-40Bs in exchange for 100 later models of the same plane."
Throughout the book Shultz referred to them as P-40Bs
This allocation of 100 planes were all the AVG received during the bulk of their tour.
A short time before their contract ran out , Chennault received six P-40Es .
After he was recalled to active duty , promoted to General , and placed in command of USAAC personnel, he received more P-40Es and a few B-25s as well.
Normally, a plane built for consideration of the military loses its factory desigignation when it is accepted by the government. It gains a military designation of type and model when the contract for production is let.
Obviously the deignation of the Factory's initial effort was changed toYP-40 when it underwent acceptance trials by the Army.
Modifications made at the Army's suggestion were designated the A model and the initial large order was for the B model which incorporated further modifications , etc.
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Thank you for replying A/C, I am somewhat releived. I had begun to wonder if I was the only one who could see my posts lately:) I appreciate your taking the time to reply
I am fairly conversant in the naming systems and conventions used by US aircraft makers in the 1940s But thank you for taking the time to explain in case I didn't know
I am very interested in this book by Mr Shultz. I'll have to find it. I have at least three references for the AVG that I can find contradictions and errors in, one by a man who served with Chennault in the Army (Jack Samson). It's good to have another source to check the others
For a long long time, it was just accepted fact that the AVG had USAAC P-40Bs. More recently however, Curtiss documents have been uncovered that ID most all of the individual airframe serials, and which RAF "block" the planes came from. For example, Chuck Older's #68 was serial P-8109, and was from block AK100 to AK570. It's RAF number was AK 480
The AVG received three shipments of these fighters, one made in January '41, one in February '41, and one in March '41. They arrived in Rangoon in May, June and July of 1941
Of the 100 fighters, 99 were assembled. The 100th fell in the bay- serial number P-8194. Wings from P-8157 were used to assemble P-8194, and later, cannibalised parts were used to complete P-8157
The AVG itself called these planes "P-40Bs", without any exception i can find. They were, after all visually identical to the P-40B. Former USAAC pilots and instructors in the AVG would have been immediately able to recognise these planes, and they would call them P-40Bs. This is, after all, an American plane used by American military forces, and it is extremely unlikely they would know that other variants of that Curtiss aircraft even existed. they would call them P-40Bs, and to them, they would be P-40Bs. They simply wouldn't have another name for them
But I would like to respectfully call attention to this as in fact being an understandable mistake, made by both the AVG itself, and almost all historians reporting the AVG's story until the last ten years or so The planes were taken off an assembly line that was actually making export variants of the P-40- the H81. As a matter of interest, it is my recollection that there never was a "P-40A"...the US Army had P-40s, P-40Bs, then P-40Cs, and so on, but no "A" model, such as other planes like the P-51 had. The "A" model designation was simply omitted in the case of the P-40
The equipment on the 100 planes the AVG received was not exactly that of a USAAC P-40B. It was, naturally enough, that of a Brit-specification Tomahawk IIA or IIB...but since the USAAC was not the customer, the planes weren't "P-40Bs", although they would have been erroneously called that by almost any American who knew what a P-40 was
Here is were real confusion starts, so bear with me
If they were made to IIA spec, they were essentially the same in almost every way, when compared to P-40Bs...even though they were not actuially P-40Bs! Examples of them having equipment not common to the P-40B- machine guns and NA3 optical sights had to be seperately purchased by CAMCO- they didn't come with the planes the AVG got, as well as radios being absent from AVG planes
If they were made to IIB spec, then they were built to a spec even more different from the P-40B!
It is interesting to note that according to historians, the US Army was the one who applied 'stencil blocks' to the ex-AVg planes in July of '42- a year after the AVG got them. the AVG didn;t over-paint the stencil blocks, teh planes were in fact painted at the factory in the camoflage the AVG used. the planes were painted one color. Rubber mats were then placed on the planes, and then the second coat of paint was sprayed. The mats masked areas, creating the camo pattern, and reproducing it fairly uniformly from plane to plane
Both British "A" and "B" patterns were in use- one essentially being a "mirror image" camo. Some AVG planes may have had this.
But since the planes were not painted camo by the AVG, the lack of P-40B stencil blocks on the planes as they came from the factory is very telling
I have several reference books on the AVG, and among my own small collection, there are omissions and mistakes, even in things like the official Chinese History of the AVG actions
if you have not already purchased it, I highly recommend Terril Clements' "American Volunteer Group Colours and Markings", from 2001, as a companion to your other reference books on the AVG. In my opinion Mr Clements did a masterful job condensing the critical facts of the subject of his book into such a brief text of only 95 pages. It is a concise guide to many, many things about the AVG. I can send you an ISBN, but it is easily ordered as it is part of the Osprey series, "Aircraft of the Aces", edition 41. Try here:
Historic Aviation
Also, stopping by Dan Ford's website is worth it:
http://www.warbirdforum.com/avg.htm
I beleive Mr Ford is heavy handed in some areas, but I do not doubt his research is genuine and extremely valuable
I am fairly conversant in the naming systems and conventions used by US aircraft makers in the 1940s But thank you for taking the time to explain in case I didn't know
I am very interested in this book by Mr Shultz. I'll have to find it. I have at least three references for the AVG that I can find contradictions and errors in, one by a man who served with Chennault in the Army (Jack Samson). It's good to have another source to check the others
For a long long time, it was just accepted fact that the AVG had USAAC P-40Bs. More recently however, Curtiss documents have been uncovered that ID most all of the individual airframe serials, and which RAF "block" the planes came from. For example, Chuck Older's #68 was serial P-8109, and was from block AK100 to AK570. It's RAF number was AK 480
The AVG received three shipments of these fighters, one made in January '41, one in February '41, and one in March '41. They arrived in Rangoon in May, June and July of 1941
Of the 100 fighters, 99 were assembled. The 100th fell in the bay- serial number P-8194. Wings from P-8157 were used to assemble P-8194, and later, cannibalised parts were used to complete P-8157
The AVG itself called these planes "P-40Bs", without any exception i can find. They were, after all visually identical to the P-40B. Former USAAC pilots and instructors in the AVG would have been immediately able to recognise these planes, and they would call them P-40Bs. This is, after all, an American plane used by American military forces, and it is extremely unlikely they would know that other variants of that Curtiss aircraft even existed. they would call them P-40Bs, and to them, they would be P-40Bs. They simply wouldn't have another name for them
But I would like to respectfully call attention to this as in fact being an understandable mistake, made by both the AVG itself, and almost all historians reporting the AVG's story until the last ten years or so The planes were taken off an assembly line that was actually making export variants of the P-40- the H81. As a matter of interest, it is my recollection that there never was a "P-40A"...the US Army had P-40s, P-40Bs, then P-40Cs, and so on, but no "A" model, such as other planes like the P-51 had. The "A" model designation was simply omitted in the case of the P-40
The equipment on the 100 planes the AVG received was not exactly that of a USAAC P-40B. It was, naturally enough, that of a Brit-specification Tomahawk IIA or IIB...but since the USAAC was not the customer, the planes weren't "P-40Bs", although they would have been erroneously called that by almost any American who knew what a P-40 was
Here is were real confusion starts, so bear with me
If they were made to IIA spec, they were essentially the same in almost every way, when compared to P-40Bs...even though they were not actuially P-40Bs! Examples of them having equipment not common to the P-40B- machine guns and NA3 optical sights had to be seperately purchased by CAMCO- they didn't come with the planes the AVG got, as well as radios being absent from AVG planes
If they were made to IIB spec, then they were built to a spec even more different from the P-40B!
It is interesting to note that according to historians, the US Army was the one who applied 'stencil blocks' to the ex-AVg planes in July of '42- a year after the AVG got them. the AVG didn;t over-paint the stencil blocks, teh planes were in fact painted at the factory in the camoflage the AVG used. the planes were painted one color. Rubber mats were then placed on the planes, and then the second coat of paint was sprayed. The mats masked areas, creating the camo pattern, and reproducing it fairly uniformly from plane to plane
Both British "A" and "B" patterns were in use- one essentially being a "mirror image" camo. Some AVG planes may have had this.
But since the planes were not painted camo by the AVG, the lack of P-40B stencil blocks on the planes as they came from the factory is very telling
I have several reference books on the AVG, and among my own small collection, there are omissions and mistakes, even in things like the official Chinese History of the AVG actions
if you have not already purchased it, I highly recommend Terril Clements' "American Volunteer Group Colours and Markings", from 2001, as a companion to your other reference books on the AVG. In my opinion Mr Clements did a masterful job condensing the critical facts of the subject of his book into such a brief text of only 95 pages. It is a concise guide to many, many things about the AVG. I can send you an ISBN, but it is easily ordered as it is part of the Osprey series, "Aircraft of the Aces", edition 41. Try here:
Historic Aviation
Also, stopping by Dan Ford's website is worth it:
http://www.warbirdforum.com/avg.htm
I beleive Mr Ford is heavy handed in some areas, but I do not doubt his research is genuine and extremely valuable
To all the Mothers and the Sisters and the Wives and the Friends, I want to offer my love and respect to the end
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Oh-
Scott, if you haven't already seen the sources I listed at the end of the above post, I highly recommend them, they are fascinating
As means of added inspiration, here's a skin I just made recently, representing John Petach's #47 of the 2nd Pursuit Squadron:
Happy flying!
.
Scott, if you haven't already seen the sources I listed at the end of the above post, I highly recommend them, they are fascinating
As means of added inspiration, here's a skin I just made recently, representing John Petach's #47 of the 2nd Pursuit Squadron:
Happy flying!
.
To all the Mothers and the Sisters and the Wives and the Friends, I want to offer my love and respect to the end
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