Accu-Sim Comanche 250 for MSFS is in beta testing

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AKar
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Re: Accu-Sim Comanche 250 for MSFS is in beta testing

Post by AKar »

MarcE wrote: 20 May 2023, 09:01 In the Hornet for example the trim hat button will move the stick.
BTW, interestingly enough, the Hornet (the real one, in CAS mode) trims just like a non-FFB flight sim would, as it simply electrically biases the control scheduling of the flight control computers. Everything is done by 'bending the curves' in the boxes, the stick does not move and is simply spring-centered. For pitch trimming in the final available backup mode (MECH), there is a trim motor to drive the stick spring centering and thus neutral front and back. Aileron and rudder trim commands do nothing in this case.

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lonewulf47
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Re: Accu-Sim Comanche 250 for MSFS is in beta testing

Post by lonewulf47 »

... or even more simple in the FBW Buses: releasing the stick just commands Zero g and Zero roll rate (NOT commanding wings level...!) So, whatever position you put it in, it keeps it (unless leaving the flight envelope..)
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AKar
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Re: Accu-Sim Comanche 250 for MSFS is in beta testing

Post by AKar »

Yeah, comparing to the Airbuses, the Hornet on the other hand does require manual trimming, for instance, for hands-off banked turns, or, interestingly, for steady climbs. With neutral pitch trim (and reasonable airspeed and alpha), the system does command 1 g via pitch channel when hands-off, but it is not compensated for any roll or pitch angles. In any steeper climb, the 1 g commanded is actually some excess lift and the aircraft therefore has a tendency to pull up if not countered by the pilot. It is an interesting quirk of that specific control logic. I have only "flown" it in a trainer simulator, but it felt very natural to counteract. The real bird, the chaps told me, usually takes some slight trimming in addition, due to airframe imperfections and that sort.

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Re: Accu-Sim Comanche 250 for MSFS is in beta testing

Post by MarcE »

So we have aerodynamical trim, hydraulic displacement trim, electronic trim... and Asobo trim. :lol:

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Re: Accu-Sim Comanche 250 for MSFS is in beta testing

Post by einherz »

MarcE wrote: 20 May 2023, 07:39
einherz wrote: 19 May 2023, 23:43 so we close... hope accu-sim will not touch or make better msfs dynamic air flows and different way above desert and between hills turbulent and wings go heavier:) in fsx that's was possible only in certain mission, where pressure go down in mountains, there you should found crashed ac with your maule... for me that live air in msfs most advantage over any "realistic" stuff, what i'm stay skeptical about, as i said before, for me a2a do best stuff, best realistic as possible today i guess, but i stay think is overkill, like another edge of line at another - fully casual,,, i hope, after you create your overkill accu-sim, all other birds will born faster, 3 years guys, 3 years of hard work for create realistic things, that, i'm sorry will not much more real than other good things on the market like pmdg or milviz or flyingiron, sure that's subjectively, like time's relativity... and what most sad in that situation, we got so many good ga for now, but no one good enough mustang, and first will comanche... better be that comache would rah-66 than just one more slow piston however good it is:)
any way big big thank you... with understanding not too many people with fighter's obsession like i have... and i really hope all wires birds you will create will have dynamic surface and virtual joysick/yoke, pedals depend on airflow not on physical joystick/rudder position... i mean if we trim ailerons at 170knts that's mean not only left trim tab go down, but aileron go up at angle that need for compensate banking out horizon... same about rudder and elevator... because if not this is really not realistic and very noticeable:) btw afaik in other models today nobody do this, and even your models for p3d didn't model it, you can move ac in msfs only by trimmers, and see that's crazy thing virtual controls and surfaces stay in neutral and that's horrible...
but in any way as i said, all of you and your colleagues from other companies do incredible work i know that you know that we know that:)
Trim is a very difficult topic in flightsim since our hardware doesn't replicate what's happening in the sim. With the aileron as an example: If you fly an aircraft that has aileron trim and you set the trim significantly to either side (which would indicate a problem with your plane rather than a normal situation) your INGAME yoke would tilt to this side. So the input forces would be neutralized with this yoke position. Now you look at the yoke in front of you and it's perfectly centered. I wouldn't like this, would you?

Regarding the rudder trim in the sim and the ability to directional control on the ground... that's obviously utter nonsense made up by Asobo for no sensible reason except a total misunderstanding of trim. What Asobo seems to do is simply add a trim value to the control input instead of changing the behaviour of the plane. There are addon aircraft where you can even increase the effectiveness of the rudder by adding trim. And that's why you can steer many aircraft with rudder trim. Another big issue in this sim is the advice of many developers to add trim before takeoff IN ORDER TO BE ABLE to stay on the runway during the takeoff run. That's nonsense again. Of course you'll notice a different zero force position when you apply power in a Spitfire that has 6 units rudder trim applied against one that has zero but the actual rudder POSITION has nothing to do with where the trim is set, only with what your feet are doing. You'll have to keep the plane straight regardless what you do with your trim. You'll just have another neutral force position. That's again not possible to recreate correctly in the sim as our rudder pedals don't have force feedback. They are always centered and the devs have to work with that.
yes i do. as user x65f pro i do. and if i'd use something else i'd will do. physical joystick on my table as joystick in f-16 for some f-16 pilot don't show ailerons/elevator position, if we told about cub, physical pedals and joystck haven't show that too, but virtual in the virtual cockpit should... that's way it's works, if you don't use ffb joystick, you don't show by joystick where to moves dynamic surfaces, you move dynamic surfaces from position that trimmers or torque effect or flat spin's air flows moves that surfaces, so by physical joystick you just correct that not show how it must looks like... that's what to do good model, most of aircraft just won't still spin after overcritical aoa if joystick will moves to neutral, but good model create situation, where that's airplanes spins and that's mean ruder will moved by airflow, but in fsx p3d msfs all that things show where your physical controller, and that's very very big dissonance of mixture reality. that's why for easy take high power taildruger we use trims in simulator because if that airflow deflection modelling, if not modelling grows force we need for push on pedals trims in simulators will have not any sense, because any our physical position will turn to same position surfaces at any air speed. and that's will calling simple model, by this way we will not have spins, overspeed grows dive vector, and that's model will not force us to give more push or pull, and as mentioned trims will lost any sense... all that modeling, some devs do it better some not very good, but nobody give attention to authentic surfaces and or virtual controls position, our physical joystick exist in our room reality, everything else, that happens behind the monitor that's another reality where we have not to see craziness stuff like banking with neutral ailerons or lever flight with 5* ailerons autopilot trims with same neutral position because physical joystick in neutral position... i just want to say if we talking about simulation of real stuff we have to see real behavior behind monitor, whatever we do in front of it... i hope example of f-16(x65f pro(or any other force sensor joysticks)) some helps to understanding even better:)
p.s. this is not asobo fail, they do what the have to do, add some effect what you do in real, in real when speed grows, feedback of joystick/pedals grows too, so we have to use trimmers or push on joystick/pedals more, when more of airspeed... so problem only cosmetical, virtual controls and deflected surfaces must move by real airflow created by wind, different airflow vectors, trim's tabs, airflow from torque or p-factor... we need simulator with simulation of reality, not simulation of controls position somewhere from operator's universe...
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Re: Accu-Sim Comanche 250 for MSFS is in beta testing

Post by einherz »

MarcE wrote: 20 May 2023, 11:03 So we have aerodynamical trim, hydraulic displacement trim, electronic trim... and Asobo trim. :lol:
asobo indeed no worst than was in fsx or in p3d, and i think in xp too... in dcs i play so rare, i can not even say i play it, because really really rare... long time i need from simulator some certain stuff be everywhere on planet i want in real time weather, simulators without that simple things not mine, after i saw how looks like sky and ground in msfs, i just forgot about another simulator, as i said before, i think run for realism overpriced very much, i really don't like full casual arcade style, i love with all respect and respect with all my love real modeling cockpits and close behavior to real things, and all my favorites looks so with so behavior, and why i really need see ailerons and if cockpit give that chance rudder and elevator in normal position without physical control's line position depending, as example my favorite corsair in msfs do not animate balanced tab, and i can live with it, but would be cool see that stuff moves, like it moved in 2000 year game il-2 sturmovic in same name airplane... sure same about trim tabs and general control surfaces, i'd like see in corsair not only tabs but metal "sticks" that move them, but i'm ok without:) all i talking about it's not necessary it's just would be very very cool things in milviz corsair or in future a2a mustang and other fighters, and in a2a comanche because i'd like to have that in my msfs hangar, i'll probably will not flight too much as i don't with all carenado seneca or seminol or push tag cessna from night flyer movie or many other things i almost don't fly, because love fighter conception, flight fighters, airborn fighters, landing fighters and watch the virtual world from fighters and from opportunity they can do with me, that's haven't any airliners or bush flyers, that's why i'd be very happy if a2a will modelling airacobra or kingcobra with opportunity of flat spin invrted flat spin fast go from normal spin recovery to inverted for aggressive go up from diving about 0.7m speed. whatever hypnotic can be any ga aircraft, only fighters really interesting for me, because you can cruise hours and after gone crazy like dog who meet his human after 5 years, and for sure where you do that better be without dissonances or in other words with most authentic aircraft and everything in and on aircraft. if we talking about realism so far:)
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Michael-C172pilot
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Re: Accu-Sim Comanche 250 for MSFS is in beta testing

Post by Michael-C172pilot »

To go back on topic - do you have kind of a road map which Planes you want to bring next? And do you have any plans to licence the engine to other developers?

Really looking forward to the final plane. And hoping for a C172 ;).

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Re: Accu-Sim Comanche 250 for MSFS is in beta testing

Post by Bones »

Michael-C172pilot wrote: 21 May 2023, 03:19 And do you have any plans to licence the engine to other developers?
I truly hope not. Many companies would replace their canned claim of "tested by real _____ pilots" with "Accu-Sim," and continue cranking out one aircraft after another without really putting further effort into it beyond the physical model. I think the name would suffer.

Michael-C172pilot
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Re: Accu-Sim Comanche 250 for MSFS is in beta testing

Post by Michael-C172pilot »

I tend to agree. A A2A sim with MSFS graphics would be a good commercial sim product, though.

Well lets see what we get. Looking so much forward to it. Regarding the trim: The A2A C172 in FSX was great except take off run and trimming - I missed the trim wheel and the electric trim needed Lots of time to align.

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Re: Accu-Sim Comanche 250 for MSFS is in beta testing

Post by Salyh672 »

I just can't wait to see the new Accu-Sim Engine
Yes the Engine i want to take care of it :D

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jeepinforfun
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Re: Accu-Sim Comanche 250 for MSFS is in beta testing

Post by jeepinforfun »

A2A added an elevator sensitivity bar because of complaints from folks using different products or having differing views on how it should react, maybe they should consider adding a trim sensitivity bar for the same reasons.
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Re: Accu-Sim Comanche 250 for MSFS is in beta testing

Post by MarcE »

jeepinforfun wrote: 21 May 2023, 13:11 A2A added an elevator sensitivity bar because of complaints from folks using different products or having differing views on how it should react, maybe they should consider adding a trim sensitivity bar for the same reasons.
I think there was a bit more to it than sensitivity. From what I remember it was very subtle and you wouldn‘t even notice a difference if you didn‘t know what to look for. Axes in general were much better in P3D, there is a weird oversensitivity in MSFS around the middle of the axis and then further out it snaps to the max, at least visually. Default aircraft are totally oversensitiv around the pitch axis, they can pitch up and down much more brutally than aerodynamics would ever let them. Good developers however have found ways to use the available cfg values and it has become much handier. With A2A I still hope for some external handling though, their flight models in P3D were so realistic that I hope they have overcome the MSFS limitations as well.

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Re: Accu-Sim Comanche 250 for MSFS is in beta testing

Post by DJW »

Great article / flight test of the Comanche 250 in the May edition of Pilot magazine, can't wait to see if the A2A version handles as described. Must try the nose wheel take off :D

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Re: Accu-Sim Comanche 250 for MSFS is in beta testing

Post by Mustang »

On the topic of trim, there was a great tool called RealTrim for FSX that mirrored the method used in DCS. Once you had your controller in the position required to hold the desired attitude, you could press a button which 'disconnected' your controls and allowed you to centre them, then you would let go of the button. The aircraft would hold its attitude with that new 'centre point' defined. It worked brilliantly and was a thousand times better than the built-in FSX trim. Sadly, it didn't work with A2A aircraft, well certainly not the Comanche, in which I ended up doing some unintentional negative-g loops thanks to 'excessive' trim inputs caused by this tool conflicting with the aircraft :mrgreen:

I'd love to see something similar developed for MSFS, and, well, a complete overhaul of the trim system too. All of the recent Microsoft sims have done a bad job of it. From the issue with the 'repeat rate', where holding the trim key applies one or two notches of trim for a second or two before accelerating into extreme trim speed, to the fact that the trim seems to provide a stronger control inputs than full yoke deflection at times. It's just weird. With the advanced flight modelling I would like to hope they can model trim tabs in the airflow for more natural behaviour one day.

DCS does it well as others said earlier - especially with a FFB controller where it trims off-centre very naturally.

I'm sure the trim will be improved on the Comanche in MSFS vs default behaviour, but no doubt A2A are dealing with some sim limitations. Whatever the outcome, I look forward to finding out at some point. Dudley said it's nearly ready, so I'll take that as two weeks. In the flight sim world, it's always two weeks. Oleg Maddox taught me that :wink:

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cristi.neagu
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Re: Accu-Sim Comanche 250 for MSFS is in beta testing

Post by cristi.neagu »

I don't think the people doing the aerodynamics at Asobo are that knowledgeable on the topic to implement all these fancy trim options you guys are talking about...

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