Who is using a force feedback yoke?

[MaxZ]

Hi folks!

The key note of this post is: The more (and more expensive) hardware you have, the less time you spend actually using it.

I upgraded my PC aka "bought a new one and kept the keyboard" and decided that it would also be time to go a bit further and get a force feedback yoke since I got a bit frustrated when trying to trim with my old hardware.

Starting out with a Logitech 3D Xtreme joystick went via a Saitek MadCatz V1 to a X-52 setup before I got a chance to incredibly cheaply buy a TM Warthog. At the same time I thought: "oh a yoke would be neat for yoke-aircraft" (looking at you A2A ) so I got the basic Saitek Yoke, everbody seems to have had at one point in their flightsim life. After that I got a Flightmaster Yoke 2 (which is overpriced rubbish, don't buy that).
Saitek Rudder pedals followed and were soon replaced by MFG Crosswinds.



So the year 2021 comes and I felt the urge to upgrade again. I quickly noticed that the range of force feedback devices is managable...and also hugely overpriced. Nevertheless I settled for the Brunner CLS-E NG which set me back roughly 1200€ excluding taxes and customs and a ridiculous 90€ shipping.
And boy is this thing tough to utilise.
With my almost 2000h and more than 3500flights in real aircraft, I thought I could easily replicate the feel, especially for elevator behaviour, in the sim. Brunner provides an okayish default profile to work from and run a profile cloud where other users can upload their profiles. So this should be an easy one, right? Well no, not for me. If anyone has nailed a C172 setting, let me know, any help is appreciated.

I feel that flightsimming was very niche from 2008-2016 and for that reason there was a lack of good hardware in that time. Recently we have seen quite an astonishing increase in manufacurers for good sticks and yokes as well as other peripherals. What happed to FSX in this timespan, namely nothing happened to it in terms of further development, was what got us the diversity of addons that we have today. Nowadays the flightsimcommunity seems a lot more inhomogenous and over the recent years other simulators became more prominent and so did the platforms especially new players use them on. Myself having always been a die-hard microsoft flight sim guy I suddenly found myself using different sims for different styles of flying/aircraft which was at least for me unthinkable at the time.


Who on this forum also uses FFB hardware, what's your stance on hardware in general? I am curious to hear your experiences and thoughts!

Regards,
Max

[Waffler11]

I own the MS Force Feedback 2 joystick and boy, am I glad I held on to it all those years. MSFS has yet to determine whether or not it'll be implemented (last I looked, that particular "wish list" item is still under investigation). The motorized centering *really* pays off here. I just hope my joystick will last another 10 years!

[Medtner]

I've been using a Brunner Yoke since 2017, and Brunner Rudders since 2020.

They are extremely expensive, I'll grant that, but the "texture" and feel of the whole thing + the precision... well, nothing comes close when springs/rubber bands are doing the work.

I've found that many users of FF-yokes tend to be pilots who favor mid to large airliners, and for me that would be a waste of money. Those planes are 99% of the time (practically 100%) on autopilot, and they are hydraulically operated and not prone to feel the wind forces anyway.

I only fly smaller planes, like 172s, Bonanzas, and recently a Dehavilland Beaver that I've put 500 hours or so in. I handfly to the same extent that airline-pilots don't. To get the full value out of a kit like that using autopilot is almost a sin. But I use it when I need it. (Much fun watching the yoke being moved around)

I understand that the value is dubious for a casual simmer, but, like you, when one goes through the incremental upgrades, a FF-kit is on the top.

I count my yoke/rudder as on the top 5 or even top 3 of my absolute best investments in my life so far.

[vtracy]

For what it‘s worth, here is my hardware:
Honeycomb Yoke and TQ,
VKB joystick,
Crosswind rudder pedals.
I am VERY satisfied with my pedals, they feel just right.
The joystick is (IMHO) better than the Warthog but only by a small margin (I had hoped for more difference when I bought it); I used the Warthog with longer shaft, that did not feel right,the movements were too easy… the VKB seems just right.
The yoke from Honeycomb seems good in most movements; I say „seems“ because my experience with this yoke is limited, yet. I like the TQ, the levers seem to have the right resistance to the hand.
To me, the two Honeycomb devices, while not perfect, give the best price-quality relation on the market, so far.

Like all long-time simmers, have spent a lot of money on hardware, went through many cycles of „trial and error“ in order to find the „right“ look and feel of a certain piece of sim device.
Although I have not had a Brunner yoke - yet practically all others that are below the Brunner in price - I would expect it to have that very feeling that a real yoke gives the pilot:the smooth yet resistant movement over the entire span of movement, particularöy for the elevators. Yes, I sgree, that cannot be recreated realistically with a yoke system that relies on rubber bands for resistance and not friction. Rubber bands, I found, always tend to increase resistance at the ends of the movement span (i.e. full forward or full back). I still hope that some manufacturer will invent something that produces that resistance without rubber bands.

Volker

[MaxZ]

It is quite a bit easier to set the FFB for airliners or generally for aircraft with hydraulically boosted controls from my experience.
Erik, do you mind sharing one of your profiles for any A2A bird please, I am having serious trouble to use my yoke to the full extent that I think is possible and you seem to have put a lot of hours on it already.

This hobby is a money grave for me, Volker. I use my Warthog bolted to my chair with the shortest extension Milan Simundza (the MFG Crosswind guy) offers and I am very satisfied with the results. However, I must admit I also have my eyes on a Honeycomb TQ as well as VKB Stick, let's see, certainly not in the very near future

[AKar]

I have not really used FFB for quite a while, but as a comment of generic nature, FFB vs. not has some real implications on how the control forces are simulated. Bluntly put, P3D/FSX/descendants outside some very specific custom work ... pfft, it is as if they never really gasped how some of the most used flight control principles actually work. From the sims I use, Condor and DCS are the ones that have the concepts about right - I don't think their respective approaches are quite how I would personally prefer, but then again, for the prices - I don't complain!

-Esa

[vtracy]

MaxZ,
one of the reasons why I switched to VKB is that ir has as addon a curved shaft. That way, I can mount it closer to my chair, pull it really to my stomach
I just love the Crosswind pedals, especially since I mounted the damper; that made it feel really realistic…
For the Honeycomb sets, I would wish that
a. their profiles for the switches etc. in the different aircraft are easier to set; many switches in the A2A aircraft require knowledge of software interfaces;
b. the calibration could be done by a proprietary program in place of the standard Windows calibration app; that is cumbersome.

I just flew from Goodwood (Chichester) to Manston on Autopilot (in Honeycomb TQ); very relaxing until the end. I came in too high needed a long way to settle down on the runway…

Volker

[MaxZ]

Esa: I also use DCS most of the time, even more so since yesterday when the apache was released Regarding your comment about the FSX-family, I think you are spot on, I notice a big differenc ebetween them and x-plane. I got roughly the same FFB settings in the Brunnersoftware, but in X-plane everything feels way more believable. And I must admit that I have never heard of Condor, so I will immediately google that. If it comes from a guy like you, that they've got it close to right, then I believe it.

Volker: I am not sure I understand you correctly. Can't you calibrate via FSUIPC to calibrate/assign keys and axis to different profiles or do you have to use their software for it as well as the windows program? I saw the VKB uses a camsystem in its internals that is similar to the Crosswinds, how would you compare it to the Warthog (I have no idea how it looks on the inside)?

Regards
Max

[vtracy]

MaxZ,

the calibration issue comes from the fact that the Honeycomb devices
do not offer calibration software for their devices but point the user to the respective slight sim software (e.g. Prepar3D); in P3D, if you want to calibrate ailerons/elevators or the TQ levers, P3D in the „Controls“ settings gives a possibility to calibrate but when you klick on the word, you are always linked to the calibration app in Windows. Which is a very old feature dating back several versions.

As to the assignment of buttons and switches in the Honeycomb Configuration software, it is very user-unfriendly in that there is no user guide (just a few youtube videos), the setting feature does not offer all(!) the switch/button commands that an aircraft requires (viz the fora threads that e.g. ask A2A for a list of the commands that underlie the buttons and switches.
FSUIPC is a possibility, it helps with more switch settings but not all. In that respect, I consider it a ‚workaround‘ and use it but is not a user friendly help. Imagine having all A2A aircraft: for each aircraft, you have to configure the switches and buttons separately! That is o.k. because it reflects the reality of the a/c. But it should be easier (i.e. need no workauround) to do the configuration, and then forget it and enjoy the startup procedure in each aircraft.

Both VKB and Crosswind have their own configuration and calibration app, easy, well documented and/or easy to understand. If you have the devices, you know what I mean.

Volker

[AKar]

Esa: I also use DCS most of the time, even more so since yesterday when the apache was released Regarding your comment about the FSX-family, I think you are spot on, I notice a big differenc ebetween them and x-plane. I got roughly the same FFB settings in the Brunnersoftware, but in X-plane everything feels way more believable. And I must admit that I have never heard of Condor, so I will immediately google that. If it comes from a guy like you, that they've got it close to right, then I believe it.

Hi Max,

Indeed, there will always be a compromise when most of us are using joysticks / yokes with spring centering to a fixed center point. As we know, in most aircraft, not only tend the control forces to move the controls around, also the trimmed state neutral moves. In FSX and its versions, the flight dynamics work as if all aircraft had a trimmable stabilizer, as trimming the aircraft brings the elevator into neutral position - also restoring full travel available both ways. Which is not right in most cases. On the other hand, DCS as an example gets this right, and simulates the control forces and trim effects by effectively linking the game controllers into simulated flight controls by "rubber bands" as I personally tend to think it.

This is most evident in aircraft such as the Apache you mention: in such helos, the trimming works by effectively re-centering the neutral of the centering forces into current stick & pedal position by clicking a switch. In the simulator, what we need to do is to click the switch and then quickly re-center the game controllers. This leaves the game controllers not requiring any input but the simulated controllers offset like they should. But what we lose in the process is physical awareness of the position of the simulated controls - which in case of helicopters tend be in rather different places in different flight conditions. For FFB controllers, the DCS offers entirely different trim model, which works basically exactly like the real life controls do. I would prefer some further customization into the trim system to suit different controller setups, but as mentioned, I can't really complain!

Regarding Condor, it is a neat little soaring simulation. Has a price tag of 50 € but really a must-have if you are into gliding stuff.

-Esa

[MaxZ]

Both VKB and Crosswind have their own configuration and calibration app, easy, well documented and/or easy to understand. If you have the devices, you know what I mean.

Indeed, I know exactly what you mean. MFG was straightforward and easy to set up.



They give a few options with the Apache on how you would like the trim logic to work, a lot of thought went into that product. I hope this carries over to other modules and or sims maybe.
For a long time I did not even know how helicopter controls work exactly and to some degree it is still black magic fuckery that I associate with it. I do have a decent understanding of them by now.

[vtracy]

BTW,

coming back to the title subject: How should a FFB yoke/stick even work?
In reality, I believe, it is influenced by the air over the surfaces that makes the ailerons (e.g.) more heavy to move.
How is that supposed to work in a sim? It would mean that the software model of the particular aircraft has a routine that calcuales air pressure ofer the surfaces in all situations. Is there such a routine in, say, the A2A aircraft?
Volker

[AKar]

How is that supposed to work in a sim? It would mean that the software model of the particular aircraft has a routine that calcuales air pressure ofer the surfaces in all situations. Is there such a routine in, say, the A2A aircraft?

Can't get into weeds of it just now, but if you Google up some articles or videos about fixed stick and stick-free neutral points in reversible flight control systems, you'll likely soon gasp the technical side of the idea. It is kind of in the heart of fixed wing airplane control when viewed from design point-of-view. The maths are somewhat sticky, but not necessary to understand the idea (and I've never actually been calculating any of this stuff myself). Of course, if well designed, all is very transparent and natural to the pilot who can safely assume that stability and control derivatives are something of financial in nature.

They give a few options with the Apache on how you would like the trim logic to work, a lot of thought went into that product. I hope this carries over to other modules and or sims maybe.
For a long time I did not even know how helicopter controls work exactly and to some degree it is still black magic fuckery that I associate with it. I do have a decent understanding of them by now.

The DCS helicopters are something I've found extremely fun! Not least because I've never flown an actual helicopter in reality. All the concentration required to make the concepts into real-time handling effort makes my brain hurt - in a good way, just like some nice hard exercise after a long break!

It really pays off to understand the theory - not that it helps in not constantly crashing, but at least you likely have an idea of what happened. And with time and effort and practice, at some point you'll start having an idea of what is happening quickly enough to handle the thing. Principles of Helicopter Flight by Wagtendonk is a nice one, not too superficial but not too theoretical or heavy reading either.

-Esa

[Mustang]

I own the MS Force Feedback 2 joystick and boy, am I glad I held on to it all those years. MSFS has yet to determine whether or not it'll be implemented (last I looked, that particular "wish list" item is still under investigation). The motorized centering *really* pays off here. I just hope my joystick will last another 10 years!

Same here, I've had a MS Sidewinder FFB2 for almost 20 years now and still going strong. It's fantastic in DCS with helicopters, aside from a minor lack of buttons (but can be mitigated with the 'modifier' option to make a single 4-way hat into 4 different hats). I also bought the Saitek Yoke & Throttles about 10 years ago, and they were my main controllers depending on the type of flight for a long time. Last year, after a lot of deliberation, I bought a 'proper' HOTAS and went with the Winwing Orion. Good compromise between quality/flexibility and price. Expensive but not crazy expensive, including both stick and throttle. It's a great product, but no FFB of course. I might use a combination of HOTAS throttle + FFB2 for DCS helicopters. The true-to-life off-centre FFB is just ideal.

And referring to the chart shown in the first post above, I can confirm that I have perhaps done a lot LESS flying with the new HOTAS than I might have done without it. In large part down to the huge amount of control mappings required to use all the buttons, plus the need to remember so many different combinations between MSFS, each and every DCS aircraft, and anything else I use it for. I fired up Elite Dangerous once and began to map controls but actually lost interest before I started playing. It's quite a challenge to plan and configure controls in some games, and write them all down until such time as the muscle memory kicks in.

Maybe sometimes it's best to keep things simple... perhaps not as simple as MSFS with a controller on Xbox, but maybe less is more.

[alioth]

I use MSFF2 with Condor, which is great.
FSX and P3D have built-it force feedback really bad coded.
But using FSFORCE software https://www.fs-force.com/ , force feedback works great in fsx/p3d.

Without FsForce, I prefer to switch off force feedback in p3d.

Arturo.