Great video picking apart MSFS2020's flight modeling

[Hobart Escin]

This is pretty well done and sums up the current flight modeling deficiencies with MSFS2020. Laced with humor and candid observations.

[DHenriques_]

This is pretty well done and sums up the current flight modeling deficiencies with MSFS2020. Laced with humor and candid observations.

I've been testing the FS2020 flight model now for several months. Summed up I'm just glad my name isn't on the credits.
This being said, after extensive use of the sim flying various planes I am all but convinced that it was never Asobo's aim to be accurate with their flight model. I believe what they did was to program the flight model to known aerodynamics only within a small envelope stopping well short of the areas where things get more complicated and technical. You get a great looking plane and a great looking world and as long as you're not all that fussy, the plane will operate in 3 dimensions using the very basic and minimum of resources required to accomplish that.
From a pilot's point of view, it's not accurate at all but if all you want to do is take off and fly within the capabilities FS2020 gives you you get that. Looking beyond that you will be horribly disappointed.
So that's where we are right now with FS2020. It's fun for the gamer and fun for those with just a rudimentary knowledge of flying, but beyond that, I still believe that Microsoft will have to step in and take this program over, hiring their own aviation experts and completely revamp and recode the flight model before FS2020 will be taken seriously by the real world aviation community.
I'm using it and it's damn pretty but I'm in no way pressing the program to meet my expectations.
Now if you folks will excuse me I will go shoot a few touch and go's while the ATIS screams at me on the wrong frequency and the tower tells me to go around because there is nothing on the runway to cause the tower to request me to do that. LOL
Dudley Henriques

[Hobart Escin]

I've been testing the FS2020 flight model now for several months. Summed up I'm just glad my name isn't on the credits.
This being said, after extensive use of the sim flying various planes I am all but convinced that it was never Asobo's aim to be accurate with their flight model. I believe what they did was to program the flight model to known aerodynamics only within a small envelope stopping well short of the areas where things get more complicated and technical. You get a great looking plane and a great looking world and as long as you're not all that fussy, the plane will operate in 3 dimensions using the very basic and minimum of resources required to accomplish that.
From a pilot's point of view, it's not accurate at all but if all you want to do is take off and fly within the capabilities FS2020 gives you you get that. Looking beyond that you will be horribly disappointed.
So that's where we are right now with FS2020. It's fun for the gamer and fun for those with just a rudimentary knowledge of flying, but beyond that, I still believe that Microsoft will have to step in and take this program over, hiring their own aviation experts and completely revamp and recode the flight model before FS2020 will be taken seriously by the real world aviation community.
I'm using it and it's damn pretty but I'm in no way pressing the program to meet my expectations.
Now if you folks will excuse me I will go shoot a few touch and go's while the ATIS screams at me on the wrong frequency and the tower tells me to go around because there is nothing on the runway to cause the tower to request me to do that. LOL
Dudley Henriques

Sage advice from the Master. It's not all bad though - P3D still has visuals on par (or better) with commercial Level-D full motion simulators costing tens of millions of dollars. Both platforms get the job done with less aesthetics but much more fidelity.

[jsbrewster1]

It's great to pick apart MSFS's flight model, but FSX's built in aircraft were ?()^ as well. 3rd party add-on aircraft, like A2A's study level were all I ever flew in FSX. And if A2A ever releases aircraft for MSFS, I will buy and fly those as well. In the meantime, I think bashing MSFS for being what it is, while it's progressing with every update, is a little bit unfair.

[Hobart Escin]

It's great to pick apart MSFS's flight model, but FSX's built in aircraft were ?()^ as well. 3rd party add-on aircraft, like A2A's study level were all I ever flew in FSX. And if A2A ever releases aircraft for MSFS, I will buy and fly those as well. In the meantime, I think bashing MSFS for being what it is, while it's progressing with every update, is a little bit unfair.

Not really bashing FS2020 as much as being completely upfront and candid about it. The big problem is Asobo either do not seem to even begin to understand certain fundamental aerodynamic behaviors or are simply not going to make aerodynamics a priority. FS2020 was initially marketed by both Microsoft and Asobo as a new sim platform that would incorporate complex and realistic flight modeling to a level never seen before in a desktop simulation. This has not proven to be true and it remains to be seen at this point whether such will EVER be achievable, either by Microsoft themselves or third party developers.

No arguing the very poor state of default aircraft in both FSX and P3D though. Third party developers were able to intervene and achieve unbelievable things in a very flawed foundational platform. This may or may not happen with FS2020.

Again, as the video creator here clearly mentions, for the casual simmer FS2020 is just fine, thank you very much. Those type of users will never know the difference and more power to them. Boot up FS2020, have a blast, and don't worry about the little things too much. No one is going to bug you about it.

Hardcore simmers and individuals with real flight experience are going to continue to have big issues with FS2020 nevertheless.

[Hobart Escin]

whoops, please delete this (messed up editing sorry)...

[cristi.neagu]

To me, the state of FS2020's flight model would be a non issue if we were working under the same assumptions as in FSX. The flight model in FSX wasn't great at all, but the difference is that third party developers could plug in their own flight model. Microsobo don't want third party developers doing that. Even though for now some developers have achieved this, we don't know if this will continue to be possible in the future. It may be that Asobo will at some point take active measures to make sure the flight model can no longer be bypassed. And don't start with "there's no indication of that". There never is any indication until it happens.

As for Microsoft bringing in a team of experts to fix it... I don't think that will happen. Seems like they're not much interested in expert opinion, ignoring the great deal of information on the flight model present in the forums, and not placing an emphasis on having real world pilots in their betas and listening to them. Seems like Microsoft is more interested in appealing to the gamer crowd (yes, THAT word) than to the simmers, most likely cause there are way more gamers than simmers.

[Hobart Escin]

As for Microsoft bringing in a team of experts to fix it... I don't think that will happen. Seems like they're not much interested in expert opinion, ignoring the great deal of information on the flight model present in the forums, and not placing an emphasis on having real world pilots in their betas and listening to them. Seems like Microsoft is more interested in appealing to the gamer crowd (yes, THAT word) than to the simmers, most likely cause there are way more gamers than simmers.

Exactly. Nothing has changed in the Microsoft development culture and never will. Profits are priority, and gamers are the vast majority of the market. It's a system that tolerates hardcore simmers but does not cater to them.

[cristi.neagu]

It's a system that tolerates hardcore simmers

I can tell you haven't been on the FS2020 forum lately, or on Avsim

[Thomas Pritchard]

MSFS flight model is vastly superior to the on rail's experience of defaault FSX/Prepar3d. If this were a forum of predominantly Xplane users I could understand the critique.

[cristi.neagu]

MSFS flight model is vastly superior to the on rail's experience of defaault FSX/Prepar3d. If this were a forum of predominantly Xplane users I could understand the critique.

I do wonder why you felt the need to say that...?

[Thomas Pritchard]

So many here are comparing the A2A flight model VS the MSFS flight model and completely ignoring just how laughable the FSX/P3D model truly is. If MSFS made a model comparable to A2A then they would render more then just P3D obsolete.

[cristi.neagu]

So many here are comparing the A2A flight model VS the MSFS flight model and completely ignoring just how laughable the FSX/P3D model truly is. If MSFS made a model comparable to A2A then they would render more then just P3D obsolete.

In case you haven't figured it out, this topic is discussing the FS2020 flight model and its various shortcomings. As such, why would anyone need to even bring up the FSX or P3D flight model? This isn't the church of FS2020, where we must renounce the old ways lest we fall prey to sin, amen! If you want to start a thread comparing FS2020's flight model with those of FSX and P3D, you can do that.

[wrkempson]

As a non-RW--pilot I lack sufficient knowledge to assert anything in this discussion. I do have a question for those in the know.

In the video, he demonstrates a P-51 falling out of the sky on an accelerated (right term?) stall. One of my first experiences in the A2A P-51 was just this corrective turn to final crash. Then, he uses the C152 to show how MSFS fails to replicate this behavior by only losing altitude (at, what to me, seems to be a significant rate), but this is attributed to drag due to the tight turn, etc. I wonder if the C152 would impact the ground due to this non-stall loss of altitude on a similar corrective base to final turn. Also, he seems to ignore the stall warning that begins screaming close to the stall speed he calculates. Does a stall warning mean that a stall is imminent?

When I put the A2A C172 into a >60 degree turn close to approach speed I cannot get shuddering or wing over/drops or anything else. I do get a high negative VS as a compensation. In other words, I cannot tell a big difference between the A2A C172 behavior (FSX:SE) and the MSFS C152 that he shows on the video. For this particular maneuver, from my experience in both simcraft the MSFS C172 seems to be close to the A2A C172. I am guessing at how to do these tests, I simply try to repeat what I see in the video, so I could be missing something significant.

So I guess my questions are: what should an accelerated stall in a C172 look like? Can his critique of the MSFS flight model be levelled against the A2A C172 just as well? In the video, was the early stall warning overlooked, or is that of no consequence?

Again, I lack expertise and am genuinely asking for my own education, not to argue one way or the other.

Wayne

[jsbrewster1]

I think it's valid to compare MSFS's flight model to FSX, since they are similar concepts, 20 years apart. I don't see Asobo or Microsoft trying on their own to create study level aircraft, and by extension, 100% accurate flight modeling. Using a term like garbage fire, however, is not accurate either, and only causes the dichotomy that's so present in all of our society. Do I think MSFS's flight model is perfect, no, do I think it will ever be perfect, no. Do I think it's a garbage fire, also no. It's not perfect, but it's certainly not unusable. I've had a lot of fun flying the built-in C172 steam gauge, but I do look forward to 3rd party developers creating a more accurate aircraft. And to predict that Asobo will decide to eliminate any possibility of 3rd party flight modeling, without any indication, just creates conflict.