Great video picking apart MSFS2020's flight modeling

[cristi.neagu]

I kinda ended up doing the same, to be honest. I cannot use any sort of weather forecast. All I can determine is if the weather is nice or bad. Precipitation is almost never accurate, temperatures as well. Winds are hit and miss. Very bad. So it reduces the flight planning exercise to just drawing a line on the map from point to point. If you're trying to learn to aviate, I cannot even begin to explain how damaging that is.

Then you're in the plane, where you're driven mad by silly bugs, like very bad fuel flow simulation, 0 requirement for runups or engine warmup, very unrealistic starting procedure. This happens even with JustFlight's Arrow, although it's not their fault, it's Asobo's. And you start talking with ATC and you realize just how incredibly awful the ATC is in FS2020... Just try P3D default ATC with EditVoicebox on top. The change is unbelievable. And then you try and take off and you realise ATC is asking you to take off with a 10kt tail wind... great... And then you go skidding off the runway sideways as you hit your rotation speed. And then ATC drives you crazy again. And the weather doesn't match. And the altimeter isn't working properly cause Asobo have no clue how to implement a static system. And your GPS unit is barely one step above useless cause JS is simply not meant to do any of this. And you can simply throw the POH out the window cause none of the performance figures make sense cause Asobo think every piston engine on the planet is identical. And then just as you're lining up for your approach ATC sends you to 12,000ft because that's where the STAR starts. And as you're finally landing you realise you're landing with a tail wind. And then you skid off into the bushes. And as you're shutting down in a ditch cause you're fed up with it all, the stupid logbook window pops up, telling you that it has no idea that you took off, and it has no idea where you landed.

Like I have been saying, I would much care for these issues were it not for the fact that Asobo and WT are either oblivious to their existence, uninterested in fixing them, or pretending like they're so much better than what we had before. The take off and landing yaw bug has been in the game since alpha, as far as I understand. And to this day I have not seen them acknowledge this bug.

So yeah, I too am pretty fed up with FS2020. I know that Asobo and Microsoft keep saying they're listening to the community and fixing things, but i am not seeing lots of indication that they're doing much of that with things that make a sim a sim. I have been a customer for lots of companies that had various issues and were trying their best, but with slow progress. Heck, A2A is one of those companies. But i am getting good vibes from A2A. I am getting the impression that A2A is taking so much time in order to deliver the best product they can possibly can. I am not getting that from Microsobo. I have no trouble with things taking a long time. I have trouble with developers saying they're doing things while demonstrably not doing things.

[iflyc77]

Great video indeed. MSFS is still arcade grade stuff as far as I am concerned. Have they fixed the spool time on piston engines yet?

Not sure about "spool time on piston engines"... isn't spooling something jet engines do? But JustFlight developers have expressed some of the difficulties they're having with the engine modelling, mostly with the fuel flow simulation. I don't know if any of that has changed.

Yes spooling is something that jet and turboprop engines do. It takes a while to introduce the fuel and the whatever fuel control units or fuel governors to respond to that. With a piston engine, you are moving a lever directly attached to the carb so if you slam the throttle wide open, the engine will try to respond just as fast. Of course that is not a great way to treat your engine and it might cough or backfire (see A2A T6) but the engine will more or less respond instantly with a direct relationship to a change in throttle position. The last time I used MSFS, I could slam the throttle wide open on the Pitts and it would take a measurable amount of time for full power to wind up and be developed. Completely un-flyable as far as I am concerned.

[KarelPatch]

I’m going to jump in to say that for me after a few months of playing, MSFS has killed all pleasure I had with flight simulation. I was so incredibly happy when it came out that I deleted all my P3D related stuff and I know it would take me at least a dozen hours to reinstall and tweak P3D - I’m not brave enough for that at the moment. I also stopped my Game pass subscription because I don’t feel any joy to use MSFS.

For me, the most fun was to fly with real weather from Active Sky. I spent months doing an around the world trip with hundreds of short flights, mostly with A2A planes and with the Vertx DA62. I would check the real weather maps and reports and make decisions based on that. I would load VOXATC, file an IFR flight plan or just go VFR. Each flight was a challenge, especially with A2A aircrafts where atmospheric elements have a real impact on a multitude of factors. My altitude and all planning took into consideration icing, cloud layers, winds aloft… And of course sometimes I did flights that were very complicated and unforgiving, flights you wouldn’t do in real life. But that was so fun and gratifying!

I know this topic is about the flight model and not weather and atmospheric conditions. But for me the main situations where you are likely to fly out of the envelope is when you get mistreated by weather. When you suddenly encounter downdrafts or end up in IMC during what was supposed to be a VFR flight. Under pressure you can get in big trouble… in P3D. Hard to get in trouble in MSFS because the planes will just fly almost on rails. When you master the MSFS techniques, you can do pretty much anything with planes, it’s like mastering any other arcade game…

Don't be too quick to give up on FS2020. They are making changes and additions and fixing bugs every day. There will be a period, actually in that now, where the 2020 experience might be less than expected but I can tell you from my own personal experience that the sim IS improving on an ongoing basis. It WILL get better. Give it some time. I know for a fact (as much as I can say) that Microsoft is listening and VERY interested in the future of MSFS2020.
Dudley Henriques

I won’t give up forever. But I don’t want to pay for the current state. Don’t misunderstand me, MSFS is breathtaking and groundbreaking. I’m simply not fond of their current choices regarding weather and flight model (and complex addons). I’m sure this will improve over the years.

[DHenriques_]

I’m going to jump in to say that for me after a few months of playing, MSFS has killed all pleasure I had with flight simulation. I was so incredibly happy when it came out that I deleted all my P3D related stuff and I know it would take me at least a dozen hours to reinstall and tweak P3D - I’m not brave enough for that at the moment. I also stopped my Game pass subscription because I don’t feel any joy to use MSFS.

For me, the most fun was to fly with real weather from Active Sky. I spent months doing an around the world trip with hundreds of short flights, mostly with A2A planes and with the Vertx DA62. I would check the real weather maps and reports and make decisions based on that. I would load VOXATC, file an IFR flight plan or just go VFR. Each flight was a challenge, especially with A2A aircrafts where atmospheric elements have a real impact on a multitude of factors. My altitude and all planning took into consideration icing, cloud layers, winds aloft… And of course sometimes I did flights that were very complicated and unforgiving, flights you wouldn’t do in real life. But that was so fun and gratifying!

I know this topic is about the flight model and not weather and atmospheric conditions. But for me the main situations where you are likely to fly out of the envelope is when you get mistreated by weather. When you suddenly encounter downdrafts or end up in IMC during what was supposed to be a VFR flight. Under pressure you can get in big trouble… in P3D. Hard to get in trouble in MSFS because the planes will just fly almost on rails. When you master the MSFS techniques, you can do pretty much anything with planes, it’s like mastering any other arcade game…

Don't be too quick to give up on FS2020. They are making changes and additions and fixing bugs every day. There will be a period, actually in that now, where the 2020 experience might be less than expected but I can tell you from my own personal experience that the sim IS improving on an ongoing basis. It WILL get better. Give it some time. I know for a fact (as much as I can say) that Microsoft is listening and VERY interested in the future of MSFS2020.
Dudley Henriques

I won’t give up forever. But I don’t want to pay for the current state. Don’t misunderstand me, MSFS is breathtaking and groundbreaking. I’m simply not fond of their current choices regarding weather and flight model (and complex addons). I’m sure this will improve over the years.

Fortunately there are several base simulations from which the community can choose to use. There will be "fans" of each one and reasons for each sim user to favor one sim or the other.
As a community we are fortunate to have these choices.
The main thing is not which sim is best but which one fits the user's personal preferences.
It's my experience that these preferences will change from time to time as one sim or another one suddenly satisfies the needs of specific end users.
The main thing is to enjoy whatever sim meets your personal taste at any given point on time.
The name of the game and the bottom line is always the same. Have fun and enjoy whatever sim happens to be your favorite at the moment.
Dudley Henriques

[MarcE]

Regarding payware I found myself to fly mainly the ATS P.149. It doesn‘t get blown off the runway.. or weathervanes or whatever people call it. I‘m looking forward to their Antonov 2, I feel they found the sweet spot in the config files. And my friend used to fly the An2 in CZ, he‘s a great advisor lol.

When it comes to freeware I‘m absolutely stunned:

https://www.flightsim.to/file/2246/msfs-c152-community

https://www.flightsim.to/file/11788/rob ... -capitaine

https://www.flightsim.to/file/2733/da62x-project


https://www.flightsim.to/file/2738/da40-ngx-project


https://github.com/r9r-dev/fs2020-vl3-rotax915/releases

And the default C172 flies nicely too.



Together with the Working Title and PMS Garmin mods.




Needless to mention that the engines warm up within seconds and that there‘s no fouling spark plugs and broken vacuum pumps but the amount of work these modders and ATS have put into these aircraft is worth every single smile. Jaydee (also a modder) has created an amount of great toolbar plugins. All that is a JOY in VR. The Piaggio spins sweetly and so do C152 and Da40, the 62 is a fast beast with great handling and the working title mods and all above the PMS mod (!!) almost replicate the real Garmins.

Why do you (seem to) fight with and argue about the default flightsim? A2A produces addons too, why not look for other addons in the meantime? It‘s not everything Captainsim.

Come on guys, this sim is nice, it has problems but have you ever tried to spin that default Mooney in Prepar3d?

[cristi.neagu]

Why do you (seem to) fight with and argue about the default flightsim? A2A produces addons too, why not look for other addons in the meantime? It‘s not everything Captainsim.

I assume that is aimed at me. If it isn't, disregard my reply.

If it is, my response is this: Why is everyone fighting and arguing against an external flight model? I don't want Asobo to stop working on the default flight model. I'm not saying that Asobo should delete the default flight model so that every single developer must develop their own flight model from scratch. I am all for choice and I want third party developers to have the choice of implementing their own flight model, and I want users to have the choice of buying an addon with a custom flight model. I don't see how that is affecting anyone that doesn't want a custom flight model. Replace "flight model" with "external DLLs" and my point still stands.

And I have looked for other addons. And JustFlight's Arrow, despite being considered the best GA for FS2020 by many, myself included, has plenty of bugs and compromises that have been acknowledged by JustFlight, about which they cannot do anything because they are all sim bugs. So I cannot go looking for other addons because Microsobo is against the kind of addons myself and many others are looking for.

And yes, I have been overly dramatic in my response here, I will admit that. But I am pretty frustrated by all the people that are so openly against things which have absolutely no impact on them.

[MarcE]

Cristi,

I know you exaggerated intentionally and indeed your response „triggered“ me to make that list but don‘t understand it as an attack please. It‘s just a discussion

Note that I didn‘t mention the Arrow. It‘s certainly a great addon and their effort building the systems is of grest value, that GPS 100 or what it‘s called is simply cool. Justflight have raised from the dark with their Ba146 for P3D and it seems they aim to play with the big names in the future.

However I mentioned these aircraft because for some reason I haven‘t experienced this extreme weathervaning effect taking off or landing them. The Diamonds and the Robin a bit, yes. But MUCH less than aircraft like the Carenado Mooney or the Arrow. In the P.149 the effect is basically non-existent, it veers into the wind as I would expect from a 1,2 tons SEP aircraft and so does the C152 with its 800 something kgs or whatever it weights. But there is just no surprising side swing.

The A2A Bonanza (P3Dv5) btw however does that too, when I take off in it with a crosswind everything is perfectly controllable until the MAIN wheels leave the runway. That‘s the moment when the whole aircraft swings to the side around the vertical axis. No idea why.

Anyway, MSFS has issues but so do P3D and XP. And in opposite to P3D I’m optimistic that these issues will be worked out in the next few updates. And A2A wouldn’t ruin their name with a bad or unworthy release. Let it take another month or two. I won‘t scrap the sim until A2A pull back ^^.

But in the meantime I don‘t see why I shouldn‘t enjoy MSFS with the (working) addons that I like. It‘s not usable exactly like P3D but Call of duty doesn‘t work like Battlefield either and both have the same purpose ^^

[Hobart Escin]

@Dudley Henriques:

Dudley, have you tried the latest iteration of DCS World, either with the default or add-on aircraft? I would really be interested in your expert impression as to the fidelity of the the flight dynamics. Several real US Air Force A-10 squadrons are using the DCS simulation platform to train combat pilots at present.

[DHenriques_]

@Dudley Henriques:

Dudley, have you tried the latest iteration of DCS World, either with the default or add-on aircraft? I would really be interested in your expert impression as to the fidelity of the the flight dynamics. Several real US Air Force A-10 squadrons are using the DCS simulation platform to train combat pilots at present.

I have to admit I haven't tried the program, but from what I have seen from viewing the YouTube films it would appear they have done wonderful work. The graphics are first rate. It's hard to form a firm opinion on their flight model without actually "flying" their planes but from the "inside the pit" point of view watching the film I would say the flight model in the middle and right side of the envelope looks good. I haven't seen enough of the aerodynamic limit side of the envelopes to form a firm opinion.
Dudley Henriques

[Hobart Escin]

@Dudley Henriques:

Dudley, have you tried the latest iteration of DCS World, either with the default or add-on aircraft? I would really be interested in your expert impression as to the fidelity of the the flight dynamics. Several real US Air Force A-10 squadrons are using the DCS simulation platform to train combat pilots at present.

I have to admit I haven't tried the program, but from what I have seen from viewing the YouTube films it would appear they have done wonderful work. The graphics are first rate. It's hard to form a firm opinion on their flight model without actually "flying" their planes but from the "inside the pit" point of view watching the film I would say the flight model in the middle and right side of the envelope looks good. I haven't seen enough of the aerodynamic limit side of the envelopes to form a firm opinion.
Dudley Henriques

Aha, you walked into the showroom at just the right time my friend. You can actually download the DCS main program anytime for free (it incorporates a P-51B and a Russian SU-25 aircraft by default). Also, as of today, you can download any of the add-on aircraft like the F-16, F-18, F-14, etc, for a FREE 14 day trial with no obligation. Tell 'em Hobart sent ya.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/

[DHenriques_]

@Dudley Henriques:

Dudley, have you tried the latest iteration of DCS World, either with the default or add-on aircraft? I would really be interested in your expert impression as to the fidelity of the the flight dynamics. Several real US Air Force A-10 squadrons are using the DCS simulation platform to train combat pilots at present.

I have to admit I haven't tried the program, but from what I have seen from viewing the YouTube films it would appear they have done wonderful work. The graphics are first rate. It's hard to form a firm opinion on their flight model without actually "flying" their planes but from the "inside the pit" point of view watching the film I would say the flight model in the middle and right side of the envelope looks good. I haven't seen enough of the aerodynamic limit side of the envelopes to form a firm opinion.
Dudley Henriques

Aha, you walked into the showroom at just the right time my friend. You can actually download the DCS main program anytime for free (it incorporates a P-51B and a Russian SU-25 aircraft by default). Also, as of today, you can download any of the add-on aircraft like the F-16, F-18, F-14, etc, for a FREE 14 day trial with no obligation. Tell 'em Hobart sent ya.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/

Thanks for the tip but I have to keep my system as clean as possible for testing that might be coming up soon. More than one sim installed doubles the opportunity for conflicts and complicates the process of bug elimination when in a Beta.
But you guys enjoy. Looks like a great sim.
DH

[cristi.neagu]

[...] testing that might be coming up soon [...] bug elimination when in a Beta

Oh boy! Information nuggets! Sounds like good news for the Comanche!

[Hobart Escin]

[...] testing that might be coming up soon [...] bug elimination when in a Beta

Oh boy! Information nuggets! Sounds like good news for the Comanche!

Buhaha. Sometimes a person can say a lot without really saying anything.