Some test results on rudder response in FS2020

[DHenriques_]

Continued testing on MSFS2020;

Rudder response in a desktop simulator is one of the hardest things to get right IF you are interested in accuracy as that relates to actual aircraft.
The problem is that no two planes respond the same way when rudder is applied. Those producing code can only give you an average with response curves added so you can ‘adjust to suit’.
The main complaint I and others have had so far with FS2020 has been the over sensitivity in yaw over the range of planes available to fly in the sim.
This last update has improved the situation to the point where in my opinion the end user can now play with the response curve in rudder sensitivity in the sim and come quite close to better performance.
Many of you don’t use high end rudder pedals. I’ve tested most all of them from Virtual-Fly to CH Pedals. I have come up with a suggested set of settings for the lower end pedals that I feel might be of help to some and make their sim experience a bit more realistic.
Using CH Products Pedals I set up with the following to replicate the feeling of mass and inertia resistance while taxiing. I made my tests taxiing at low,medium, and fast speeds. I also flew patterns to test the settings in flight. I used a light prop twin for these tests as they represent a median cross section for obtaining an “average”.
What follows are the settings that are giving me the positive results I was seeking.
I hope these are of some help to some of you.

For RUDDER ONLY. Brakes remain linear. Just the rudder as follows;
- Sens = 80%
+Sens = 80%
Dead Zone = 4%
Neutral = 0%
Ext Dead Zone = 4%
Reactivity = 15%

These settings are creating a visual result of resistance to dynamic pressure and vastly reducing the sudden changes in direction due to slight rudder application while on the ground.
I hope this information is helpful.
Dudley Henriques

[CorV-8]

Well, my attempt to post yesterday did not seem to work so I'll try again.

Thanks for this information - I found it very useful.

[Mickel]

Thanks for the info Dudley. It seems to be the biggest issue I’ve seen talked about. I haven’t made the leap just yet, but it’s coming.

Mike

[DHenriques_]

2020 has tremendous potential. It's a bit buggy but they seem to be working on it constantly to make it better with each update.
Presently my gripes are the over sensitivity in yaw, especially on the ground, an immersion issue where they kick you out of the shutdown procedure and force you into a page so you can view your "log book". This is a real killer for real world pilots and something they should change yesterday.
ATC is a mess and can spoil your flight. There are several other real issues that need addressing as well in their flight model but given time they just might get things right. Depends on who they are listening to for advice. LOL
Basically I like the sim but Asobo sooner or later is going to have to make a decision to either go full out in the flight simulation direction or the other way and go with the gamers. You can't have it both ways because the flight simulation side of the equation is simply too complex to be parsed out in a multi-function program to be shared with the gamers.
Time will tell !
Dudley Henriques

[wblackret]

Thanks for the info Dudley! I too use CH rudder pedals, I’ll give your settings a go. Rudder control has been dicey trying to figure out the smooth spot. Because of the testing you did, I’m sure the advisory settings will be promising. I’ll let you know, but it’s going to be a while. We leave in the morning for Gatlinburg, TN. Then onto Bowling Green, KY for our HOG Chapter rally. One hundred plus brothers on bikes, it doesn’t get any better than that! Will be back on the 14th and will let you know shortly after. Thanks for all you do! Hope you and the Mrs. are doing well.

Take care!

[MarcE]

Bill,

have a LOT of fun on that tour! My last larger bike trip was pre-Corona in Spain with two friends. 2500km in 8 tours from Valencia towards the south, then zigzagging through Andalusia to Tarifa, the most southern point of the european mainland. Then to Gibraltar and then along the coastal roads back to where we left the Van. Man, I miss these trips so much, but we're still not really back to normality. It will take some more months Enjoy your ride!


Dudley,

Thank you a lot for fiddling out these things. To be honest the rudder is the only thing I constantly nearly despair of. A few nights ago I did a takeoff with the Working Title CJ4 in Juneau, Ak and the conditions were wet, moderate winds (100/12kt) and fairly high overcast which doesn't happen too often so in this area. In Active Sky it used to be either clear or very low ceiling. Anyway, the major problem was the wind: I started my takeoff run on RW08 so the xwind component was negligible. I was perfectly able to stay on the center line with absolutely minimum rudder but the moment I went through 80 knots (I think) the aircraft veered to the right like there was a 50kts wind 90° from the right. I was not able to stay on the runway, ran into the wilderness and was able to lift the nose before I hit some beavers or went swimming or so. This terribly annoying behaviour has already hit me so many times that I have given up on searching for the issue in my assignments or settings. But I know (or believe to know) that every aircraft has a speed when the taxi model changes to the flight model and both have very different rudder effectivness settings. I think the core sim has a different rudder behaviour built in that hits me there. Incidentially, I have never experienced this in another addon prop plane, the ATS P.147, so I hope it's just a matter of will and skill of the developers.

While Asobo could (and apparently will) change things like this weird logbook appearing unquestioned I feel that the basic concept of how they manage(d) the ground taxi control will give me or us some real headache. I'm not sure if they can or will change that terrible behaviour as they will have to develop everything so it can be controlled with two xbox thumb sticks and two index finger buttons

Well, regarding the immersion killing ATC: I always tune my radio to 121.5.. for some reason it's amazingly quiet there

[wblackret]

MarcE,
Thanks! Already put on a little over 4,000 miles this year. Still a couple more trips through the fall season. We have a very large HOG Chapter, so there are many rides scheduled, dinner & dessert rides as well. Seems like everywhere we go go involves food.
Hitting the road here in about an hour!

[Hobart Escin]

2020 has tremendous potential. It's a bit buggy but they seem to be working on it constantly to make it better with each update.
Presently my gripes are the over sensitivity in yaw, especially on the ground, an immersion issue where they kick you out of the shutdown procedure and force you into a page so you can view your "log book". This is a real killer for real world pilots and something they should change yesterday.
ATC is a mess and can spoil your flight. There are several other real issues that need addressing as well in their flight model but given time they just might get things right. Depends on who they are listening to for advice. LOL
Basically I like the sim but Asobo sooner or later is going to have to make a decision to either go full out in the flight simulation direction or the other way and go with the gamers. You can't have it both ways because the flight simulation side of the equation is simply too complex to be parsed out in a multi-function program to be shared with the gamers.
Time will tell !
Dudley Henriques

I get less and less enthusiastic about FS2020 as time goes on and I haven't even purchased it yet. I think you are exactly right Dudley in that Asobo needs to finally decide whether they are going to market an arcade game with great scenery or an in-depth true simulation. Third party developers might eventually be able to fill in the gap with things like outside of the platform flight dynamics, add on weather and ATC engines, ect., but this remains to be seen. FS2020 has been out for almost a year now and it still seems like a beta release unfortunately. I think everything hinges upon release of a workable SDK that developers like A2A can use to get serious about releasing FS2020 addons at some point.

Who knows, maybe Lockheed will fire a shot across the bow and release a version of P3D that harnesses a similar scenery engine as FS2020 has. A little competition never hurt anyone and might just be what the doctor ordered.

[DHenriques_]

2020 has tremendous potential. It's a bit buggy but they seem to be working on it constantly to make it better with each update.
Presently my gripes are the over sensitivity in yaw, especially on the ground, an immersion issue where they kick you out of the shutdown procedure and force you into a page so you can view your "log book". This is a real killer for real world pilots and something they should change yesterday.
ATC is a mess and can spoil your flight. There are several other real issues that need addressing as well in their flight model but given time they just might get things right. Depends on who they are listening to for advice. LOL
Basically I like the sim but Asobo sooner or later is going to have to make a decision to either go full out in the flight simulation direction or the other way and go with the gamers. You can't have it both ways because the flight simulation side of the equation is simply too complex to be parsed out in a multi-function program to be shared with the gamers.
Time will tell !
Dudley Henriques

I get less and less enthusiastic about FS2020 as time goes on and I haven't even purchased it yet. I think you are exactly right Dudley in that Asobo needs to finally decide whether they are going to market an arcade game with great scenery or an in-depth true simulation. Third party developers might eventually be able to fill in the gap with things like outside of the platform flight dynamics, add on weather and ATC engines, ect., but this remains to be seen. FS2020 has been out for almost a year now and it still seems like a beta release unfortunately. I think everything hinges upon release of a workable SDK that developers like A2A can use to get serious about releasing FS2020 addons at some point.

Who knows, maybe Lockheed will fire a shot across the bow and release a version of P3D that harnesses a similar scenery engine as FS2020 has. A little competition never hurt anyone and might just be what the doctor ordered.

I agree. One actually can make an argument that allowing developers to do what's necessary to the flight model could solve Asobo's problem for them allowing devs like us to do what's necessary to the flight sim end of the equation while they go down the road with the gaming community.
Problem solved. The sim community would buy the program then go with specific devs to have the perfect flight simulator and the gamers would be happy with what Asobo can give them.
Who knows.............just might be a plan in there somewhere. LOL. ))))))))
DH

[Jigsaw]

I think you are exactly right Dudley in that Asobo needs to finally decide whether they are going to market an arcade game with great scenery or an in-depth true simulation.

DEFAULT MSFS is alreay leaps and bounds more of a proper simulation than DEFAULT FSX and P3D ever were. Just as with FSX/P3D in depth simulation will come with more and more advanced 3rd party products. FSX is 15 years old, MSFS not even 1 year old. You can't compare the available selection at all just yet. Give it time.

FS2020 has been out for almost a year now and it still seems like a beta release unfortunately.

Sorry, but that is nonsense. Please don't make statements like that when you admitted that you don't even have personal experience with MSFS.

[DHenriques_]

I think you are exactly right Dudley in that Asobo needs to finally decide whether they are going to market an arcade game with great scenery or an in-depth true simulation.

DEFAULT MSFS is alreay leaps and bounds more of a proper simulation than DEFAULT FSX and P3D ever were. Just as with FSX/P3D in depth simulation will come with more and more advanced 3rd party products. FSX is 15 years old, MSFS not even 1 year old. You can't compare the available selection at all just yet. Give it time.

FS2020 has been out for almost a year now and it still seems like a beta release unfortunately.

Sorry, but that is nonsense. Please don't make statements like that when you admitted that you don't even have personal experience with MSFS.

There is an aspect of flight simulation development everyone should understand a bit better than they do.
ANY NEW SOFTWARE as complex as a flight simulator and even add on software that comes on after an initial release of that flight simulation is ALWAYS in a state of "unwritten Beta". The official Beta has of course past and the program is now in the hands of thousands of people each running a different computer with all the positives and negatives this simple fact represents.
Bugs continue to be found and reported some major; some minor. The developers of the software hopefully continue to respond to the community by discounting issues that are considered to be local and "fixing" those issues deemed to be of concern to the released software.
This process continues over a LONG period of time, hopefully improving the program as it progresses.
I would go out on a limb and state flatly that several years from now FS2020 will be much more improved than it is at the present time. These improvements will come from developers like us here at A2A and from Asobo and Microsoft. Regardless of who makes the improvement the improvement WILL occur.
And this process literally describes in toto the definition of a Beta process.
Bottom line on what I'm saying here is there is really no end to the Beta process when the software is good and its developers and its community are involved as they are with a flight simulator.
I hope this helps toward a better understanding here on our forums.
Dudley Henriques

[Seat7A]

Basically I like the sim but Asobo sooner or later is going to have to make a decision to either go full out in the flight simulation direction or the other way and go with the gamers. You can't have it both ways because the flight simulation side of the equation is simply too complex to be parsed out in a multi-function program to be shared with the gamers.
Time will tell !
Dudley Henriques

Well said!

/thomas

[ratty]

Default MSFS is already leaps and bounds more of a proper simulation than default FSX and P3D ever were.

I'm curious. In what ways?

[Seat7A]

Default MSFS is already leaps and bounds more of a proper simulation than default FSX and P3D ever were.

I'm curious. In what ways?

If we exclude the comparison between MSFS and P3D as a landscape simulator, I wonder the same?

/Thomas

[Hobart Escin]

FS2020 has been out for almost a year now and it still seems like a beta release unfortunately.

Sorry, but that is nonsense. Please don't make statements like that when you admitted that you don't even have personal experience with MSFS.

Patrick, I don't have an agenda against FS2020. In fact, I was among those most enthusiastic heralding it's arrival after watching promotional videos put out by Asobo in regard to how advanced, cutting edge aerodynamic features were going to be implemented in the new sim. I was initially THRILLED with this prospect of correcting so much of what was wrong with the base FSX/P3D platform. HOWEVER, it's now very clear the early promotional material with FS2020 was clearly laced with hyperbole, unfortunately. The things now wrong with the FS2020 flight modeling engine should have never happened in the first place.

I credit the enduring Microsoft culture for this: promote, hype, make it look good, get people to purchase. Gloss over the flaws with promises of future patches. Sell, sell, sell.... No one can argue with Asobo's incredible achievement in terms of the scenery modeling engine they've developed, but the old Microsoft culture of taking two steps forward and one step back is apparently always going to exist no matter what iteration of Flight Simulator that is ever developed, now or in the future. It's a Microsoft development culture thing that the process will never be able to shake.

Contrast FSX, P3D, and FS2020 to the DCS World platform. Eagle Dynamics got so many flight modeling fundamentals right the FIRST time, and just improved upon them with subsequent versions. No relying on third party developers to fill the void; rather, the core code programmers laid down the correct foundation to begin with. Microsoft did the right thing by contracting with Asobo for the new sim's scenery engine, but the flight dynamics, weather, atc ,etc will very likely never be fixed correctly if until third part developers managed to fix the gaps. Same with FSX and P3D. Nothing will ever change. Therefore, FS2020 will never become a hardcore simulation unless third party developers intervene as they have successfully done with earlier versions of the sim.