Two Questions about FS2020

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Bones
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Re: Two Questions about FS2020

Post by Bones »

DHenriquesA2A wrote: 29 Mar 2021, 11:49 Practically nothing about the program is intuitive. Almost everything is left to be figured out through online research by the user.
DH
I think Asobo knows games and scenery, but they seem to be winging it with flight models, controls, weather, avionics, ATC, and traffic. Reading that they're trying to make the Xbox version indistinguishable from the PC might explain all of the setbacks in LOD and detail with every update. It was perfect after the first update. I'm worried it's gonna look like P3D before they're done.

Also, I'm still not getting the logbook screen when I shut down now. Not complaining... :mrgreen:

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AerialShorts
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Re: Two Questions about FS2020

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The Xbox tie-in is what worries me the most about FS2020. That boat anchor is going to tie us down. The gamer crowd doesn’t care much about accurate flight dynamics and procedures, custom controllers to simulate cockpit environments, etc. If a big chunk of their user base doesn’t care, why devote time to make that all work right?

I also don’t know how interested L-M is in graphics. Certainly they are to a first approximation but P3D is meant for training and entertainment use is specifically excluded from their licensing. They won’t feel as much pressure to update the graphics engine aside from performance improvements. They are more concentrating on training and accuracy and graphics aren’t that important for that purpose.

The Xbox hardware, especially the new one, is probably more powerful than a lot of the PCs people here are using, but it’s the mindset. Gamers aren’t near as interested in a lot of the minutiae that we like. That double vision for FS markets will work against a lot of our wishes.
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DHenriques_
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Re: Two Questions about FS2020

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AerialShorts wrote: 29 Mar 2021, 15:44 The Xbox tie-in is what worries me the most about FS2020. That boat anchor is going to tie us down. The gamer crowd doesn’t care much about accurate flight dynamics and procedures, custom controllers to simulate cockpit environments, etc. If a big chunk of their user base doesn’t care, why devote time to make that all work right?

I also don’t know how interested L-M is in graphics. Certainly they are to a first approximation but P3D is meant for training and entertainment use is specifically excluded from their licensing. They won’t feel as much pressure to update the graphics engine aside from performance improvements. They are more concentrating on training and accuracy and graphics aren’t that important for that purpose.

The Xbox hardware, especially the new one, is probably more powerful than a lot of the PCs people here are using, but it’s the mindset. Gamers aren’t near as interested in a lot of the minutiae that we like. That double vision for FS markets will work against a lot of our wishes.
This is an excellent observation. The future of 2020 will depend highly on where Asobo sees the market going and how that will affect their resource expenditure. The direction the sim takes will depend on who wins the tug of war between the gamer community and the flight simulation purist community.
I am of course representative of the purist community. At the moment I am in awe of the graphic quality Asobo put into 2020 but that's about it. The actual flight experience is far less than my standard. It pleases me however that for me the above isn't a deal breaker because no matter which way Asobo goes it shouldn't matter to us here at A2A as when we release for 2020 our Accusim engine will operate outside of the sim's basic flight modeling code. An A2A plane will have the best of both worlds; the absolutely stunning world created by Asobo and the unbelievably accurate flight model provided by Accusim.
So for us here in the A2A community, when this "marriage in heaven" finally occurs, we will have what we have always wanted.............one HELL of a flight simulator.
Dudley Henriques

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cristi.neagu
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Re: Two Questions about FS2020

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DHenriquesA2A wrote: 29 Mar 2021, 16:50 The actual flight experience is far less than my standard.
Well, as bad as it is, the flight model is a massive improvement over FSX and P3D. And that's who we need to compare it with, not with A2A. We are talking about default planes here. But there have been improvements done to default planes (such as the Diamond DA62X), and third party payware (such as the JustFlight Piper Arrow) that show the potential of the sim, even though they are not A2A level. The only thing i am worried about is the support developers like A2A will receive to bring their content to FS 2020. From what PMDG have been saying it sounds like Asobo are pretty engaged with them, and are working closely to deliver the SDK capabilities they need. I hope the same is true for A2A, because if these two companies start delivering content for FS 2020... i don't care about the rest. Give me an A2A Bonanza in the sim that we have today and i will be more than happy.

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Re: Two Questions about FS2020

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I've looked closely at some aircraft offerings, and almost pulled the trigger a couple of times, but just can't do it. A2A or nothing. I rarely flew my Comanche in P3D, Bonanza kind of took over, but I'll buy it Day 1 for MSFS. Just hope they offer the Bonanza and the warbirds at some point...before I die...help...

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DHenriques_
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Re: Two Questions about FS2020

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cristi.neagu wrote: 29 Mar 2021, 17:57
DHenriquesA2A wrote: 29 Mar 2021, 16:50 The actual flight experience is far less than my standard.
Well, as bad as it is, the flight model is a massive improvement over FSX and P3D. And that's who we need to compare it with, not with A2A. We are talking about default planes here.
Respectfully...........I have tested several of the default aircraft in 2020 and was a consultant to Microsoft on the FSX flight models. I just don't see this "improvement" in the 2020 flight model aerodynamic fidelity.
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ClipperLuna
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Re: Two Questions about FS2020

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DHenriquesA2A wrote: 29 Mar 2021, 19:29
cristi.neagu wrote: 29 Mar 2021, 17:57
DHenriquesA2A wrote: 29 Mar 2021, 16:50 The actual flight experience is far less than my standard.
Well, as bad as it is, the flight model is a massive improvement over FSX and P3D. And that's who we need to compare it with, not with A2A. We are talking about default planes here.
Respectfully...........I have tested several of the default aircraft in 2020 and was a consultant to Microsoft on the FSX flight models. I just don't see this "improvement" in the 2020 flight model aerodynamic fidelity.
Dudley Henriques
To that I would add the engine modeling. I take pride in a well-leaned engine, but leaning the 152 isn't satisfying when the mixture doesn't behave as it should. That might seem nitpicky, but it's the details like that that add up to the whole. Haven't had a chance to see what the engine does if you overheat it. Has anyone tried that yet?

But yes, the graphics are mesmerizingly good. I also very much appreciate the way you can fine-tune axis inputs in the program. And custom camera angles? How did I get by without them?

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DHenriques_
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Re: Two Questions about FS2020

Post by DHenriques_ »

ClipperLuna wrote: 30 Mar 2021, 13:59
DHenriquesA2A wrote: 29 Mar 2021, 19:29
cristi.neagu wrote: 29 Mar 2021, 17:57

Well, as bad as it is, the flight model is a massive improvement over FSX and P3D. And that's who we need to compare it with, not with A2A. We are talking about default planes here.
Respectfully...........I have tested several of the default aircraft in 2020 and was a consultant to Microsoft on the FSX flight models. I just don't see this "improvement" in the 2020 flight model aerodynamic fidelity.
Dudley Henriques
To that I would add the engine modeling. I take pride in a well-leaned engine, but leaning the 152 isn't satisfying when the mixture doesn't behave as it should. That might seem nitpicky, but it's the details like that that add up to the whole. Haven't had a chance to see what the engine does if you overheat it. Has anyone tried that yet?

But yes, the graphics are mesmerizingly good. I also very much appreciate the way you can fine-tune axis inputs in the program. And custom camera angles? How did I get by without them?
I agree on the engines. That is all part and parcel of the overall flight model. As an advisor on realism and immersion I have a tendency to go well past the macro and go deeply into the micro involved with the flight modeling. A dead giveaway for a poor flight model can be found at engine start. If after going through a pre-start checklist you hit the start button or switch and the engine starts immediately with little or no hesitation, that is usually an indication of a very "basic" flight model where the bare minimum of 1's and 0's are in play.
There are other indications of course. LOL
I will say this. For those not liking the flight modeling with the 2020 default planes.......they will LOVE having Accusim take over their sim experience.
It's coming. It's only a matter of time until we get into 2020. There are a few things that have to happen yet before Accusim can integrate flawlessly with 2020, but hopefully things will work out.
I fly out of KILG. I was based there for years. Yesterday I took off on 9 to test the 152 and climbed out over the Delaware River. As I overflew the Twin Memorial Bridges I looked down and not only the bridge was depicted perfectly but the toll booth was there exactly as it lives in real life.
It really doesn't get any better than that for the graphics. Now put Accusim in this equation and the sim community will quickly become VERY happy campers !!!!!!!!! LOL
DH

Bones
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Re: Two Questions about FS2020

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DHenriquesA2A wrote: 30 Mar 2021, 16:33 It's coming. It's only a matter of time until we get into 2020. There are a few things that have to happen yet before Accusim can integrate flawlessly with 2020, but hopefully things will work out.
You're killing us, Dudley. :a2a:

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DHenriques_
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Re: Two Questions about FS2020

Post by DHenriques_ »

Bones wrote: 30 Mar 2021, 18:15
DHenriquesA2A wrote: 30 Mar 2021, 16:33 It's coming. It's only a matter of time until we get into 2020. There are a few things that have to happen yet before Accusim can integrate flawlessly with 2020, but hopefully things will work out.
You're killing us, Dudley. :a2a:
Trust me, I know how badly everybody wants us to get into 2020. I'm in that ball park myself.
There are certain things that have to happen with the SDK in order for our Accusim to function properly. It's coming but not quickly so we have to wait.
We could enter the ring now but the result would be a product not up to A2A standards. Nobody would be happy with that least of all A2A.
So we wait, and when we DO enter the MSFS2020 ring what we release will be the most beautiful, accurate, and realistic aircraft we have ever produced for a flight simulator.
DH

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Re: Two Questions about FS2020

Post by WB_FlashOver »

I've been keeping an eye on this thread. I am not a pilot so I cannot speak to the flight dynamics and how factual or fictional they actually are in MSFS. To be honest I really did not expect them to be real accurate in the first place, especially knowing how they are targeting the XBox crowd of "gamers". We want a "simulator" not a "game". I did not plan on buying the sim until A2A made their debut but a close friend purchased it as a gift for me. In FSX I tried and tried to enjoy the stock aircraft but was always disappointed and could not stick with it. When I found A2A I was sold at once and then moved to P3Dv4. Actually finishing a flight without encountering an OOM was a real treat. I have found that the stock aircraft in MSFS are at the very least tolerable and even enjoyable most of the time.

Asobo has made it clear that this is a work in progress and they are updating things as fast as they can. It has become obvious that fixing one item can surely break another item. My opinion of the base sim is that it is amazing. Will they produce aircraft that will rival A2A standards? Doubtful but that is ok because I'd rather wait for the professionals at A2A to show us what really can be done in the new sim. I'm totally amazed when I hear a simmer talk about moving from FSX to P3D. The potential in MSFS is mind boggling and I cannot see spending money on anything less.

I cannot wait to see what A2A has for us. You make me quiver with excitement Dudley :wink:

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cristi.neagu
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Re: Two Questions about FS2020

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WB_FlashOver wrote: 30 Mar 2021, 22:03 I have found that the stock aircraft in MSFS are at the very least tolerable and even enjoyable most of the time.
I have found the same. The "on rails" experience is gone. I remember one of the demo flights for FSX (at least i think it was FSX) which had you landing a 172 at dusk on an airport on a northern island somewhere. The aircraft was already established on final. All you needed to do was take your hands and feet off the controls and the plane would almost fly itself on the runway, it was that stable. This is no longer the case with FS2020, so the feeling of flight is much improved over stock FSX.

Even so, i think they got lazy. The physics engine does most of the heavy lifting so they didn't have to put as much effort into default planes to get them flying better than FSX, and all those shortcuts do show. The various improvement mods one can find in the forums really improve the experience immensely, and all it took was someone determined enough to spend a few hours, maybe a few days, on tweaking the parameters to get it flying right. It's something Asobo should have been easily capable of. Either way, right now i am greatly enjoying the DA62X mod. The only downside is that it has a glass cockpit and the visibility isn't that great, but it is such a nice touring airplane. Low speed, high speed, close to the floor, up in the flight levels, short trip, long trip, it does it all and the community modification makes it comparable to the real thing.

So what i am left thinking is... If Asobo put out a half-baked model that doesn't even have proper engine indications, and the community puts in a tiny bit of effort to tweak some values, and at the end we get a pretty decent aircraft... What would someone with A2A's experience, commitment, and determination be capable of? I can only imagine it will be incredible.

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AerialShorts
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Re: Two Questions about FS2020

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Pie-in-the-(ahem)-sky Department — Since the SDK is holding up development of the Comanche, could it be that there are other aircraft being moved up to that same sticking point so that when the SDK issues (whatever they are) are resolved, we might see quick progress on those coming to market too? Not knocking the Comanche and I know A2A supports other sims, but I would guess the base 3D models and such aren’t that dependent on the SDK functionality and much can still be brought up to whatever extent the SDK allows. I don’t know the balance of efforts involved so it may not be worth doing preliminary work on other aircraft, but if devs are needing things to do... :D

A P-47, P-38, P-51, Connie, V-tail Bonanza, or other beautiful art deco birds with full AccuSim treatment would be wonderful...
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cristi.neagu
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Re: Two Questions about FS2020

Post by cristi.neagu »

Well... we do know that PMDG have ported their 737 model into MSFS. At least i seem to remember seeing some screenshots shared by RSR from inside the cockpit. But there was no functionality, just the 3D model. So i wouldn't be surprised if A2A did the same some time ago.

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Re: Two Questions about FS2020

Post by Cat3508 »

"I'm totally amazed when I hear a simmer talk about moving from FSX to P3D."

Thats because some of us dont have the band width for the massive download size, and a pathetic downlead speed. I am quite happy with P3Dv4.5 as is
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