Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 - News and Footage

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Dogsbody55
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Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 - News and Footage

Post by Dogsbody55 »

patful wrote: 01 Oct 2019, 07:35
Dogsbody55 wrote: 01 Oct 2019, 00:14 ... I can't believe that A2A and Orbx haven't been included in those they're engaging with...
Only way I'd buy/rent it is if A2A's on board. Orbx...not so much. I'm hoping addon scenery isn't necessary.
I saw an interview done at Cosford a week ago with one of the guys from Orbx. When asked about FS2020, the interviewee replied "no comment". Not sure what that means at all, but given what we've seen of the new flight sim, you have to wonder what role scenery developers might play in future.

As to A2A products, I'm among those who won't dump the existing sims until there's a reasonable range of A2A products for that sim. Plus I have plenty invested in P3Dv4 to just dump it all next year. FS2020 does look great and promises a lot, but since it appears to be a work in progress, I'll probably wait a year before dipping my toes in that pond.


Cheers,
Mike
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patful
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Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 - News and Footage

Post by patful »

Dogsbody55 wrote: 22 Oct 2019, 23:27FS2020 does look great and promises a lot, but since it appears to be a work in progress, I'll probably wait a year before dipping my toes in that pond.
There's still one more day to be notified for the first Alpha, fingers crossed. But looking like I may have to wait a year as well. :mrgreen:

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Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 - News and Footage

Post by ImpendingJoker »

Dogsbody55 wrote: 22 Oct 2019, 23:27
patful wrote: 01 Oct 2019, 07:35
Dogsbody55 wrote: 01 Oct 2019, 00:14 ... I can't believe that A2A and Orbx haven't been included in those they're engaging with...
Only way I'd buy/rent it is if A2A's on board. Orbx...not so much. I'm hoping addon scenery isn't necessary.
I saw an interview done at Cosford a week ago with one of the guys from Orbx. When asked about FS2020, the interviewee replied "no comment". Not sure what that means at all, but given what we've seen of the new flight sim, you have to wonder what role scenery developers might play in future.

As to A2A products, I'm among those who won't dump the existing sims until there's a reasonable range of A2A products for that sim. Plus I have plenty invested in P3Dv4 to just dump it all next year. FS2020 does look great and promises a lot, but since it appears to be a work in progress, I'll probably wait a year before dipping my toes in that pond.


Cheers,
Mike
I like planes like a I like tractors. They are both mechanical marvels of engineering, that hold my awe and my interest in equal measure, yet, I do not like to drive tractors or fly planes in real life but I love to watch them from the ground, and from the sides of the road in the case of tractors. One must not be fully vested in system management, or learn the complex handling characteristics, to enjoy aviation. There are plenty of casuals out there and on these very forums that like to just look at the planes from the outside while they fly. Those are the people that make up the bulk of aviation enthusiasts and they run for cover when people start throwing around words like center of gravity, pFactor, and manifold pressure, they just like airplanes, and don't care about all the ins and outs of their operation, and those are the people that will be the target for the new MSFS, and that is not a bad thing because, more people in the hobby is always a good thing. If not for the support by us, the fans of FSX and P3D, I doubt that either would have been developed for for as long as they have been. Flight died a still birth because the community was shut out from the word go, this time around it looks like they have learned that lesson but, even as staunch a supporter of the new MSFS that I am, if they try to monetize it like they did Flight, and like Dovetail did with FSW, I will be the first to turn on the people that made that call but, I won't take it out on the sim itself. Flight was very good, and I flew it for a long time after they pulled the plug until I had to reformat my PC when I rebuilt it, because what it did, it did very well, it was the people on the other side of it that killed it. I am not saying that you have to buy MSFS day one or even month one, but if enough people DON'T buy it, then it will die just like Flight did, with little to no development.

Again, no one is saying you have to dump what you have to add something new. Hell, I have P3Dv3.4, FSX:SE, DCS:World, and now IL2 Sturmovic: Great Battles, and when the time comes I will add the MSFS to that list. I probably have as much time and money tied up in FSX/P3D as anyone else here, and just because I do that doesn't prevent me from moving to something new. Again I will point that the only reason not to get it is out of stubbornness, just like those people that still insist that stuff be made for FS9,though these people are starting to move on, and to P3Dv4 ironically. And for those that are wagging a finger asking, "Why haven't you gone to v4 yet?", I reply, Money was the biggest factor since I hurt my back and can no longer work, I was all set to until I saw what was up with MSFS, now, v3.4 is just fine for me, and when it's time to update it most likely will be to the MSFS. No one producer of add-ons drives my choice of flight sims, unless it's helicopters, then it is DCS all the way, so whether or not A2A goes to the new platform is immaterial to me. If they do great, I'll continue to support them, if they don't, that is fine, I'll fly what ever else I can get my hands on. I fly for the airplanes, and hate long distance flying, and rarely do flights over 45min.
Paul

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DHenriques_
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Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 - News and Footage

Post by DHenriques_ »

Those are the people that make up the bulk of aviation enthusiasts and they run for cover when people start throwing around words like center of gravity, pFactor, and manifold pressure, they just like airplanes, and don't care about all the ins and outs of their operation, and those are the people that will be the target for the new MSFS,
I believe you might be mistaken about your choice for the target base for Microsoft and the new simulator.
(Don't ask me how I know this :-)
Dudley Henriques

patful
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Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 - News and Footage

Post by patful »

DHenriquesA2A wrote: 23 Oct 2019, 19:50 I believe you might be mistaken about your choice for the target base for Microsoft and the new simulator.
(Don't ask me how I know this :-)
Dudley Henriques
That sounds almost like confirmation that A2A is developing something or other for it. :D

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DHenriques_
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Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 - News and Footage

Post by DHenriques_ »

patful wrote: 23 Oct 2019, 21:11
DHenriquesA2A wrote: 23 Oct 2019, 19:50 I believe you might be mistaken about your choice for the target base for Microsoft and the new simulator.
(Don't ask me how I know this :-)
Dudley Henriques
That sounds almost like confirmation that A2A is developing something or other for it. :D
A2A is interested in any and all aspects of future development for flight simulation. :-)
Dudley Henriques

Dogsbody55
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Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 - News and Footage

Post by Dogsbody55 »

[quote=
As to A2A products, I'm among those who won't dump the existing sims until there's a reasonable range of A2A products for that sim. Plus I have plenty invested in P3Dv4 to just dump it all next year. FS2020 does look great and promises a lot, but since it appears to be a work in progress, I'll probably wait a year before dipping my toes in that pond.


Cheers,
Mike
[/quote]

I like planes like a I like tractors. They are both mechanical marvels of engineering, that hold my awe and my interest in equal measure, yet, I do not like to drive tractors or fly planes in real life but I love to watch them from the ground, and from the sides of the road in the case of tractors. One must not be fully vested in system management, or learn the complex handling characteristics, to enjoy aviation. There are plenty of casuals out there and on these very forums that like to just look at the planes from the outside while they fly. Those are the people that make up the bulk of aviation enthusiasts and they run for cover when people start throwing around words like center of gravity, pFactor, and manifold pressure, they just like airplanes, and don't care about all the ins and outs of their operation, and those are the people that will be the target for the new MSFS, and that is not a bad thing because, more people in the hobby is always a good thing. If not for the support by us, the fans of FSX and P3D, I doubt that either would have been developed for for as long as they have been. Flight died a still birth because the community was shut out from the word go, this time around it looks like they have learned that lesson but, even as staunch a supporter of the new MSFS that I am, if they try to monetize it like they did Flight, and like Dovetail did with FSW, I will be the first to turn on the people that made that call but, I won't take it out on the sim itself. Flight was very good, and I flew it for a long time after they pulled the plug until I had to reformat my PC when I rebuilt it, because what it did, it did very well, it was the people on the other side of it that killed it. I am not saying that you have to buy MSFS day one or even month one, but if enough people DON'T buy it, then it will die just like Flight did, with little to no development.

Again, no one is saying you have to dump what you have to add something new. Hell, I have P3Dv3.4, FSX:SE, DCS:World, and now IL2 Sturmovic: Great Battles, and when the time comes I will add the MSFS to that list. I probably have as much time and money tied up in FSX/P3D as anyone else here, and just because I do that doesn't prevent me from moving to something new. Again I will point that the only reason not to get it is out of stubbornness, just like those people that still insist that stuff be made for FS9,though these people are starting to move on, and to P3Dv4 ironically. And for those that are wagging a finger asking, "Why haven't you gone to v4 yet?", I reply, Money was the biggest factor since I hurt my back and can no longer work, I was all set to until I saw what was up with MSFS, now, v3.4 is just fine for me, and when it's time to update it most likely will be to the MSFS. No one producer of add-ons drives my choice of flight sims, unless it's helicopters, then it is DCS all the way, so whether or not A2A goes to the new platform is immaterial to me. If they do great, I'll continue to support them, if they don't, that is fine, I'll fly what ever else I can get my hands on. I fly for the airplanes, and hate long distance flying, and rarely do flights over 45min.
[/quote]

The great thing about flightsim is that it attracts all sorts of people, from casual but fascinated users who know very little about aviation to serious aviation buffs including pilots and others involved in the aviation business. We're all enthusiasts to one degree or other, but whether one group outnumbers another is both impossible to accurately know and is largely immaterial anyway. Everyone here gets what they want from this hobby, and that's enough. I hope the new MSFS will be financially viable for MS and wish them every success. I see why Flight died quickly, but FSW was a different case and there were more reasons than market acceptance as to why that died. I bought it and was impressed, as far as it went. However, it was still a late alpha version when it was pulled. The most disappointing thing about the FSW episode was the huge number of people who criticised it with no first hand experience of the product. There seams to be a lot of such people around these days and I think they should be ashamed of themselves. Alas the world is full of keyboard warriors today. What I have found is that the people you meet in real life in the aviation world are much nicer than many you come across in the world of social media. That's not a criticism aimed at anyone here, merely an observation. I hope MSFS doesn't go the same way as Flight and FSW as it looks like MS are trying to move the genre on in a way that hasn't been attempted since the early days of flightsim.

As for myself, I reiterate that I'm unlikely to make the move immediately. In my case I have too little time to have multiple flightsims on the go simultaneously. I am one of the more "semi professional" users here and have had my flight training curtailed thanks to having been made redundant from my job. So I know a bit about flying (enough to be dangerous :mrgreen: ) and truly appreciate A2A products because of their realism and attention to detail. When I'm on my sim, I wish to fly as well as I can for the most part and improve my knowledge and I think you can't do that with the small amount of time I have available using multiple sims. I'm also one of the many here for whom finances are finite so if I buy a product and some addons, I want to get some use from it. But give it a year or so, and I may well change my mind. Nothing has to be written in stone. We're all different and exist in different circumstances.

Cheers,
Mike
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ImpendingJoker
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Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 - News and Footage

Post by ImpendingJoker »

DHenriquesA2A wrote: 23 Oct 2019, 19:50
Those are the people that make up the bulk of aviation enthusiasts and they run for cover when people start throwing around words like center of gravity, pFactor, and manifold pressure, they just like airplanes, and don't care about all the ins and outs of their operation, and those are the people that will be the target for the new MSFS,
I believe you might be mistaken about your choice for the target base for Microsoft and the new simulator.
(Don't ask me how I know this :-)
Dudley Henriques
I'll ardently disagree with that statement. If it were true, Xbox One would never have even been mentioned. The Xbox Live install base is where I draw my conclusion from. If you can show me that there are more hardcore flight simmers out there than the 2 million+ Xbox Live subscribers, then I'll admit my thoughts on the target base are off. The biggest reason for this is simple: If MSFS is good, then hardcore sim users are a given, if MSFS bad, then appeal to the massive Xbox Live install base and make some quick money back on the development costs before it goes the way of MS Flight. So, no, I don't think my target base if off even in the slightest. MS doesn't want OUR money, if it's as good as they say, they will already have it, but as we know "we happy few" are not enough to entice MS to develop this. They must be reasonably sure that they are going to make money with this, and they are looking at way bigger numbers than the hardcore flight sim group. We might drive the simulator industry but simulators are already niche, and those looking for more such as A2A and PMDG are not the numbers that will support a new flight simulator alone; so where do those numbers come from? Casuals. I welcome rebuttal.
Paul

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DHenriques_
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Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 - News and Footage

Post by DHenriques_ »

ImpendingJoker wrote: 24 Oct 2019, 18:37
DHenriquesA2A wrote: 23 Oct 2019, 19:50
Those are the people that make up the bulk of aviation enthusiasts and they run for cover when people start throwing around words like center of gravity, pFactor, and manifold pressure, they just like airplanes, and don't care about all the ins and outs of their operation, and those are the people that will be the target for the new MSFS,
I believe you might be mistaken about your choice for the target base for Microsoft and the new simulator.
(Don't ask me how I know this :-)
Dudley Henriques
I'll ardently disagree with that statement. If it were true, Xbox One would never have even been mentioned. The Xbox Live install base is where I draw my conclusion from. If you can show me that there are more hardcore flight simmers out there than the 2 million+ Xbox Live subscribers, then I'll admit my thoughts on the target base are off. The biggest reason for this is simple: If MSFS is good, then hardcore sim users are a given, if MSFS bad, then appeal to the massive Xbox Live install base and make some quick money back on the development costs before it goes the way of MS Flight. So, no, I don't think my target base if off even in the slightest. MS doesn't want OUR money, if it's as good as they say, they will already have it, but as we know "we happy few" are not enough to entice MS to develop this. They must be reasonably sure that they are going to make money with this, and they are looking at way bigger numbers than the hardcore flight sim group. We might drive the simulator industry but simulators are already niche, and those looking for more such as A2A and PMDG are not the numbers that will support a new flight simulator alone; so where do those numbers come from? Casuals. I welcome rebuttal.
No problem at all Paul. In fact I hope your dreams all come true for you. :-))))))
Dudley Henriques

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Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 - News and Footage

Post by ImpendingJoker »

DHenriquesA2A wrote: 23 Oct 2019, 19:50
No problem at all Paul. In fact I hope your dreams all come true for you. :-))))))
Dudley Henriques
Not exactly sure what you mean by that, what dreams are you referring to? I have few dreams these days, and zero aspirations. I asked for your reasoning, and you attempted to "handle me". I'm a cynic because of things just like this. You told me not to ask where you got your info from, and that is fine, I didn't. I gave you my reasoning, and you've given me nothing. I've respected you as an aviation expert and never have argued with you openly but in this I do call into question your source. If someone is feeding you inside information, then that calls into question the integrity of the whole operation, if not, and your comment is based on some other information, then it shouldn't be imprudent to ask where you get your information from. I am always willing to change my mind but I don't do so just on a whim or based on vague statements. If there is something out there that is saying they aren't trying to target the casual aviation enthusiast, then by all means point me to it, I'll eat crow, and go about my life having been further educated, because for me, aviation has, is and will be a life long pursuit of both entertainment and knowledge. "The wise man will thank you for correction but the ignorant man will hate you."
Paul

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DHenriques_
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Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 - News and Footage

Post by DHenriques_ »

ImpendingJoker wrote: 24 Oct 2019, 21:33
DHenriquesA2A wrote: 23 Oct 2019, 19:50
No problem at all Paul. In fact I hope your dreams all come true for you. :-))))))
Dudley Henriques
Not exactly sure what you mean by that, what dreams are you referring to? I have few dreams these days, and zero aspirations. I asked for your reasoning, and you attempted to "handle me". I'm a cynic because of things just like this. You told me not to ask where you got your info from, and that is fine, I didn't. I gave you my reasoning, and you've given me nothing. I've respected you as an aviation expert and never have argued with you openly but in this I do call into question your source. If someone is feeding you inside information, then that calls into question the integrity of the whole operation, if not, and your comment is based on some other information, then it shouldn't be imprudent to ask where you get your information from. I am always willing to change my mind but I don't do so just on a whim or based on vague statements. If there is something out there that is saying they aren't trying to target the casual aviation enthusiast, then by all means point me to it, I'll eat crow, and go about my life having been further educated, because for me, aviation has, is and will be a life long pursuit of both entertainment and knowledge. "The wise man will thank you for correction but the ignorant man will hate you."
I have no idea what you are talking about.
My comment "Don't ask me how I know this" was simply a general comment based on many many years of first hand experience in this industry. It wasn't meant to be disparaging in any way whatsoever. I think I know this business pretty well including the people in it. I do have some inside information as you say but anything I have to say is usually based on my personal intuition. My opinion on Microsoft's marketing direction is simply that...........my opinion.
Time will tell if what you have said is correct or incorrect. Until then feel free to think whatever you like. I have no particular agenda that I wish to press on you.
Wishing you a good day .
Dudley Henriques

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Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 - News and Footage

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Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 - News and Footage

Post by bobsk8 »

ImpendingJoker wrote: 24 Oct 2019, 18:37
I'll ardently disagree with that statement. If it were true, Xbox One would never have even been mentioned. The Xbox Live install base is where I draw my conclusion from. If you can show me that there are more hardcore flight simmers out there than the 2 million+ Xbox Live subscribers, then I'll admit my thoughts on the target base are off. The biggest reason for this is simple: If MSFS is good, then hardcore sim users are a given, if MSFS bad, then appeal to the massive Xbox Live install base and make some quick money back on the development costs before it goes the way of MS Flight. So, no, I don't think my target base if off even in the slightest. MS doesn't want OUR money, if it's as good as they say, they will already have it, but as we know "we happy few" are not enough to entice MS to develop this. They must be reasonably sure that they are going to make money with this, and they are looking at way bigger numbers than the hardcore flight sim group. We might drive the simulator industry but simulators are already niche, and those looking for more such as A2A and PMDG are not the numbers that will support a new flight simulator alone; so where do those numbers come from? Casuals. I welcome rebuttal.
The bottom line, is that there are 3 sims now, and sim users have financial investments in all three. It will take awhile for them to decided to start all over again with FS2020. How long will Microsoft wait before they pull the plug if it doesn't start turning a profit, remains to be seen. They didn't wait very long with Flight, that's for sure. Here today, gone tomorrow. I think they are hoping that the X box users, will like flying fighter jets around shooting up the skies, using their Xbox controllers, and that will eventually be the primary user group that can generate money for MS. The Niche of a Niche group of flight sim addicts like us, won't amount to a drop in the bucket as far as income for MS.

It will take a couple of years before we know the outcome of all this, but I wouldn't be at all surprised , if MS2020 has the same end result as Flight and FSW,
MSFS 2020
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Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 - News and Footage

Post by TymK »

ImpendingJoker wrote: 24 Oct 2019, 18:37
DHenriquesA2A wrote: 23 Oct 2019, 19:50
Those are the people that make up the bulk of aviation enthusiasts and they run for cover when people start throwing around words like center of gravity, pFactor, and manifold pressure, they just like airplanes, and don't care about all the ins and outs of their operation, and those are the people that will be the target for the new MSFS,
I believe you might be mistaken about your choice for the target base for Microsoft and the new simulator.
(Don't ask me how I know this :-)
Dudley Henriques
I'll ardently disagree with that statement. If it were true, Xbox One would never have even been mentioned. The Xbox Live install base is where I draw my conclusion from. If you can show me that there are more hardcore flight simmers out there than the 2 million+ Xbox Live subscribers, then I'll admit my thoughts on the target base are off. The biggest reason for this is simple: If MSFS is good, then hardcore sim users are a given, if MSFS bad, then appeal to the massive Xbox Live install base and make some quick money back on the development costs before it goes the way of MS Flight. So, no, I don't think my target base if off even in the slightest. MS doesn't want OUR money, if it's as good as they say, they will already have it, but as we know "we happy few" are not enough to entice MS to develop this. They must be reasonably sure that they are going to make money with this, and they are looking at way bigger numbers than the hardcore flight sim group. We might drive the simulator industry but simulators are already niche, and those looking for more such as A2A and PMDG are not the numbers that will support a new flight simulator alone; so where do those numbers come from? Casuals. I welcome rebuttal.
We seem to be forgetting that it’s not just us, the “hardcore simmers”, and them, the “casuals”. There’s also a third group, and a very important one, too: the “pros”. If you look at Prepar3D, apart from the (notable) visual improvements, it’s still ESP (which effectively means FSX) at its core -- nothing has really changed as regards the core physics, flight model, and so on. And yet, it has proven to be a successful platform for customers that include the US military. That’s a significant source of income for MS. If you remember the fate of FSW, Dovetail hastily removed it from the market with little notice because they desperately wanted to avoid the next license payment to MS (don’t quote me on it, but someone mentioned a figure close to $1m). I don’t suppose LM are paying any less... :wink: So, there’s nothing stopping MS from licensing the new-generation engine for commercial applications, too.

Another thing is that with the advanced weather simulation, photogrammetry integration, Azure AI and so on, it’s shaping to be an excellent foundation for a much broader “world simulator”. All in all, I think they have the financial motivation to do it right that extends well beyond our little niche, which makes me cautiously optimistic about the new FS.

Oh, and on a much lighter note...

[speculation mode ON!] What plane would be absolutely perfect for exploring the new high-res world with procedural grass/vegetation and all the other bells and whistles? And what plane, previously announced as being in beta, has unexpectedly fallen off the radar? [speculation mode OFF!]

That’s all in jest, of course, but if the MS team are really serious about the new sim, I’d be surprised if they hadn’t already reached out to the best GA add-on maker on the market... ;-)

Regards,
Tym

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Re: Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 - News and Footage

Post by Hook »

TymK wrote: 25 Oct 2019, 10:00[speculation mode ON!] What plane would be absolutely perfect for exploring the new high-res world with procedural grass/vegetation and all the other bells and whistles? And what plane, previously announced as being in beta, has unexpectedly fallen off the radar? [speculation mode OFF!]
We may have to make do with the Carbon Cub and Icon A5 if we don't get an A2A J3 Cub. Neither will be a bad substitute, but somehow I doubt anything will replace A2A.

Three months in beta so far.

Hook

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