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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:01 am 
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We are rather strict about enforcing the clear prop (or "od elise" as we say it in serbian) on our local LSA airfield, and given the number of visitors on the field at any given moment, I believe it has prevented countless incidents. As for the key pouch thing Akar mentioned, we have bright red lanyards on all of the aircraft keys, and when not using it, it is placed on top of the instrument panel so it is easily visible from the outside. Gives you a bit of peace of mind when working on a plane :D

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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:49 am 
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Interesting to see that this topic has stirred-up quite a bit of debate.

In terms of implementing the feature unobtrusively without having to add additional pop-ups or 3-D MDL geometry how about this:

If the mags are off and the pilot's window is open, right clicking the starter triggers the call. Right click actions aren't used all that much in A2A virtual cockpits I know, but judicious use of them here and there doesn't seem to present any problems.

In additional, the input configurator could be used to assign a key/button to the function if desired.

Nick


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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:14 am 
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Hi.
Scott why not do it the same or similar way you did this in the B17 , its simple and unobtrusive , and functional.
regards alan. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:44 am 
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alan CXA651 wrote:
Hi.
Scott why not do it the same or similar way you did this in the B17 , its simple and unobtrusive , and functional.
regards alan. 8)

It was rather easy for the 17 because the inertia starter gave you time from warning to props spinning, on any airplane with a direct drive starter, yelling clear prop at the exact second you start cranking the engine would defeat the point.

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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:54 am 
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I think the idea of having the keys sitting on top of the panel as a "cold and dark" setting is the better way of doing it - it is elegant, and it doesn't require any "popups".

Visualize it this way:

- The plane is cold and dark.
- One does the preflight and such.
- After checking doing the before start checks, one opens the window/door/canopy.
- One clicks the keys on the panel.
- The keys are then moved to the ignition and, if a few seconds are spent before turning the key (say 5-10 seconds) ***, a "CLEAR PROP" is called.
- Then one can turn the key to start/both, and fire the engine up.

*** The reasoning behind this makes it so that if one forgets to look around and make the CLEAR PROP-call, or indeed, if one chooses to forgo it, one can just turn the key and fire up. The concious act of putting in the keys and then spending a number of seconds to look around for people/animals/objects is an indication that one intends to make the warning call, hence the trigger of the recorded CLEAR PROP-call.

There should also be some repercussions for repeatedly not making the call and spending the seconds looking for people after putting in the keys. This is the same as the general walk around - one can spot a potential problem if the walk around is completed properly, and if one forgoes it there is a potential of missing a problem.
Therefore some sort of rare, but random, penalty could be programmed into Accusim. I don't expect a visual mincing to happen, but maybe an indication that one needs to visit the hangar, or whatever to "reset" whatever incident happened when turning the key without making the call.

This could be very very simple:

- No call made.
- Randomly (but very rare) an incident happens.
- The engine won't start (maybe with an indication that this isn't an engine failure, but rather an incident - someone's voice saying that something happened).
- A visit to the hangar is needed to get a "report" and a simple click to reset.

I think the CLEAR PROP-option is a great idea. The added immersion and learning opportunity is fantastic. To leave the key on the dash makes for a good routine in real life. Similarly, the routine that one is, after having put the key in, actually spending a handful of seconds getting a visual indication of the surroundings before making the call and then turning the key is also a great routine.

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All the Accusim-planes are in my hangar, but they aren't sitting long enough for their engines to cool much before next flight!


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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:44 am 
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alan CXA651 wrote:
Hi.
Scott why not do it the same or similar way you did this in the B17 , its simple and unobtrusive , and functional.
regards alan. 8)


I KNEW I remembered hearing the 'clear prop!' yell somewhere but couldn't remember where. I guess it's been too long since I've spent time in the B-17!

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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:48 am 
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Medtner wrote:
I think the idea of having the keys sitting on top of the panel as a "cold and dark" setting is the better way of doing it - it is elegant, and it doesn't require any "popups".

Visualize it this way:

- The plane is cold and dark.
- One does the preflight and such.
- After checking doing the before start checks, one opens the window/door/canopy.
- One clicks the keys on the panel.
- The keys are then moved to the ignition and, if a few seconds are spent before turning the key (say 5-10 seconds) ***, a "CLEAR PROP" is called.
- Then one can turn the key to start/both, and fire the engine up.

*** The reasoning behind this makes it so that if one forgets to look around and make the CLEAR PROP-call, or indeed, if one chooses to forgo it, one can just turn the key and fire up. The concious act of putting in the keys and then spending a number of seconds to look around for people/animals/objects is an indication that one intends to make the warning call, hence the trigger of the recorded CLEAR PROP-call.

There should also be some repercussions for repeatedly not making the call and spending the seconds looking for people after putting in the keys. This is the same as the general walk around - one can spot a potential problem if the walk around is completed properly, and if one forgoes it there is a potential of missing a problem.
Therefore some sort of rare, but random, penalty could be programmed into Accusim. I don't expect a visual mincing to happen, but maybe an indication that one needs to visit the hangar, or whatever to "reset" whatever incident happened when turning the key without making the call.

This could be very very simple:

- No call made.
- Randomly (but very rare) an incident happens.
- The engine won't start (maybe with an indication that this isn't an engine failure, but rather an incident - someone's voice saying that something happened).
- A visit to the hangar is needed to get a "report" and a simple click to reset.

I think the CLEAR PROP-option is a great idea. The added immersion and learning opportunity is fantastic. To leave the key on the dash makes for a good routine in real life. Similarly, the routine that one is, after having put the key in, actually spending a handful of seconds getting a visual indication of the surroundings before making the call and then turning the key is also a great routine.


This would work just fine with aircraft using a key in the mag switch. Many don't use a key however so tying the call to the keys might be an issue.
DH


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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:27 am 
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DHenriquesA2A wrote:

This would work just fine with aircraft using a key in the mag switch. Many don't use a key however so tying the call to the keys might be an issue.
DH


True, but all the GA-planes have the key, and they are the most useful for early learning of good habits. For the warbirds, I guess another, similarly elegant solution could be found. The thought of getting a visible popup-button is an immersion killer, so it may possibly be relegated to an invisible clickspot - such as the TOGA-button on the panel for the PMDG-birds.

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Arendal, Norway
(Homebase: Kristiansand Lufthavn, Kjevik (ENCN)

All the Accusim-planes are in my hangar, but they aren't sitting long enough for their engines to cool much before next flight!


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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:45 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 573
Again, with the Comanche you could just mouse click somewhere in the window opening of the little window to initiate the clear prop call, after you open the little window. No need for an icon. If you don't do that routinely you would get an engine start with a broken prop.

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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:52 am 
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Yup, definitely used here in the UK

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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:13 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2016 8:23 am
Posts: 1346
Hi.
All the mil and t-6 could be done the same way as the B17 due to inertia starters except the spit which could be done on primer .
The two pipers could be done on the ignition switch as you need to p[ress a start button.
The two cessnas could be done as the ign switch is turned to first positon before you reach start positon with engine off.
Regards alan. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:20 am 
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alan CXA651 wrote:
Hi.
All the mil and t-6 could be done the same way as the B17 due to inertia starters except the spit which could be done on primer .
The two pipers could be done on the ignition switch as you need to p[ress a start button.
The two cessnas could be done as the ign switch is turned to first positon before you reach start positon with engine off.
Regards alan. 8)


I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings guys but if this gets done at all it will most likely be done in a way that will work for all affected aircraft. Whatever it is, might be, or will be, it will be simple,innovative, and immersion friendly.
Dudley Henriques


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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:32 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:04 pm
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Location: Birmingham, England
I strongly agree with Erik; incisively, straight to the point. Leave the keys on the dashboard. Inserting keys is the natural sequence-trigger to call "clear prop".

In my opinion, opening side windows is not specific to calling and thus not in sequence with calling. I usually open the side window/s as my very first step (before scanning instruments, doing checks and pre-flight exterior inspection) so to avoid steaming up the glass; hoping Tug is not reading this.

But I do have a real problem with the 'ethos' behind the notion of negative-cost if you forget to call. This is playing games! I'm aiming for simulated flight, not fake penalty. Self-satisfaction of 'doing it right' should be enough.

Could there be an on-screen prompt (if you've selected cockpit tips) (on inserting the keys)?

PS Anyway, how are going to call "clear prop" e.g. pressing a key? then what's the (speech) output?

If in doubt, then .......

Rod


Last edited by rod321 on Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:08 pm 
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rod321 wrote:
I strongly agree with Erik; incisively, straight to the point. Leave the keys on the dashboard. Inserting keys is the natural sequence-trigger to call "clear prop".

In my opinion, opening side windows is not specific to calling and thus not in sequence with calling. I usually open the side window/s as my very first step (before scanning instruments, doing checks and pre-flight exterior inspection) so to avoid steaming up the glass; hoping Tugg is not reading this.

But I do have a real problem with the 'ethos' behind the notion of negative-cost if you forget to call. This is playing games! I'm aiming for simulated flight, not fake penalty. Self-satisfaction of 'doing it right' should be enough.

Could there be an on-screen prompt (if you've selected cockpit tips) (on inserting the keys)?

PS Anyway, how are going to call "clear prop" e.g. pressing a key? then what's the (speech) output?

If in doubt, then .......

Rod


Yeah, the opening of the window should not be a trigger - I devised my approach above to avoid that problem. The window/door/canopy should be open for the trigger to work, but shouldn't be the trigger itself - this would make the window and doors have only a single function.

I can see the problem of the negative-cost too, so it was only a suggestion to have some extra incentive. It could be the rarest of rare random events for the non-callers out there, though. A broken prop and a message in the hanger is all it takes to get a lesson. But of course, the satisfaction of knowing that one does it correctly is incentive in it self.

If my solution works elegantly with the GA-planes and the warbirds, then only the click on the keys on the dash should be enough to start the reaction - the sound of the keys rattling and being put into the ignition is an indication. The window needs to be open either before or within a reasonable time after the keys has been put into the ignition. So in that way there is no need for a separate command or key to be pressed - and especially not ghastly immersion-killer that a popup panel would be.
Dudley's suggestion that an invisible clickspot in the opening of the window in the GA-planes (and possibly somewhere in the warbirds too) may also be a solution.
I like the key on dash idea better - it serves the additional purpose of being a visible indication outside the airplane that the ignition isn't on when doing the preflight.

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All the Accusim-planes are in my hangar, but they aren't sitting long enough for their engines to cool much before next flight!


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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:52 pm 
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First, I agree with Dudley not to make this look "gamey" as this is the way we've always made our approach to sims.

Also, I'm not sure about the keys on the dash, as this is sort of pushing the pilot into a pre-defined systematic way of doing things. Some follow checklists, some don't, some use acronyms, etc. For example, you could put the keys in the ignition first when you get in the airplane, then go through your list, etc.

The way I see this is, if the following conditions are met:
- Window opened
- Electrics on
- Engine off

A subtle: "Clear Prop" text could appear

Personally, I like the idea because I'm not going to yell "Clear prop" every time at the sim. The reality is I don't in the sim (some may prefer to do this and that is perfectly fine), but do always in the real plane. So I think having the sim allow this is a good thing, especially for training.

Scott.

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