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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:18 pm 
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I agree, if I'm doing it seriously them in using my real check list and I just say it out loud. Not bothered about an artificial call when it is something you actually say yourself. A fake call is actually less realistic when we spend loads of money trying to achieve as much realism as possible.
Chris


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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:24 pm 
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n421nj wrote:
I think it would be cool to have incorporated but can’t see how it would be done except maybe as a checklist item. I don’t want an independent button for it and don’t want it going off as the prop is turning. As a novelty of a checklist is where it would fit best but only as that a novelty, I’d rather see the code space used for something more important like side loading on landing gear causing them to break or smoke inside the VC during electrical fire


If implemented at all it would be nothing more than an added checklist item with an option then to make a single (one event) key press (most likely taken from an existing function on the keyboard not needed elsewhere). The pushing of the key would then run a simple audio file "Clear Prop". The actual starting of the engine would NOT be connected in any way to this file so in effect you could make the call then either start the engine or not. Your option completely.
Nothing more than a simple addition to immersion for those wishing to use it. Since it's a normal procedure, and our A2A pilots are for the most part quite serious about accuracy and doing things as they should be done, I see this as a good thing to have available to our pilots.
Dudley Henriques


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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:35 pm 
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Tutmeister wrote:
I agree, if I'm doing it seriously them in using my real check list and I just say it out loud. Not bothered about an artificial call when it is something you actually say yourself. A fake call is actually less realistic when we spend loads of money trying to achieve as much realism as possible.
Chris


Your choice of course but I would respectfully disagree. To have a complete simulation the simulation has to be complete. Doing anything outside the simulation such as shouting Clear Prop when doing that isn't part of the simulation is not really the best way to do things.
Imagine for a moment you are demonstrating the sim to friends who are experiencing it for the first time. The room is crowded with people watching you "fly the plane". Suddenly without warning you shout "CLEAR PROP".
Trust me, I'm an immersion consultant. LOL The result of doing that could very well cause those people to start laughing instead of taking what you were doing seriously. You could conceivably confirm that "gaming" image you were trying to avoid.
Just joking of course, but you get my point I hope :-))))))))))))))))))
In other words you can go just so far with immersion. Then it becomes fantasy.
As long as it's "in the simulation" it's immersion. When you start shouting things that are not directly connected to the simulation you are entering into the fantasy area. To an onlooker you might as well be wearing a parachute and a helmet and goggles to complete the picture for them. :-)))))))))))
Dudley Henriques


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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:22 pm 
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Yes i take your point Dudley. I suppose it depends on how much you do in or out of the sim. If you are demonstrating everything within the sim then you are right, I hadn't really thought if it like that.
I was thinking more along the lines of a partial or full cockpit and using a real checklist where it is less jarring to actually say things out loud when you are manipulating physical switches doing checks etc. I find this situation great practice for me.
I suppose it depends on your audience and usage situation at any given time, in which case having it in means you can use it if you want or not.

What's wrong with flying helmet, chute and goggles? Doesn't everyone fly their spit like that? I thought it was part of the eula! :)

Chris


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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:04 pm 
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Tutmeister wrote:
Yes i take your point Dudley. I suppose it depends on how much you do in or out of the sim. If you are demonstrating everything within the sim then you are right, I hadn't really thought if it like that.
I was thinking more along the lines of a partial or full cockpit and using a real checklist where it is less jarring to actually say things out loud when you are manipulating physical switches doing checks etc. I find this situation great practice for me.
I suppose it depends on your audience and usage situation at any given time, in which case having it in means you can use it if you want or not.

What's wrong with flying helmet, chute and goggles? Doesn't everyone fly their spit like that? I thought it was part of the eula! :)

Chris


I totally agree with you on verbal interaction with a checklist..........in the real airplane ! In fact I teach the use of checklists in this exact manner. You identify it, you touch it, you say it out loud to yourself. This gives you a triple check on every item in logical progression done quickly and efficiently as a single smooth action. And it works both from a written and from a flow pattern routine.
In the sim you could of course do the same thing but instead of logical, the physical act of voicing something like "Clear Prop" while sitting in front of a computer monitor is psychologically out of place. In other words you are voicing something but the sim isn't directly responding to your command. There is no clarity to the communication loop. IF however you read the checklist on the screen, press the key that initiates the call, then HEAR the call voiced back at you by the simulation, you have satisfied in correct succession what you would have done in the actual aircraft. You have read what is required; you have touched what was required (the key); you have heard the verbal confirmation from the simulator that your action was correct, and you have satisfied the checklist item. Immersion has been satisfied.
Or..........you can shout "Clear Prop" then wait and hit the starter..............but by doing it that way you have kept the simulation out of the realism equation and committed an act the sim has had no part in.
Anyway..........that's the psychology. You can start the engine either way, but keeping yourself inside the simulation has proven over time to be more "satisfying" of the immersion factor for most people.

That's the skinny on the psychological stuff. :-)))))))))))))))))))))
DH


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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:25 pm 
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Thinking about it, for the simulator, we could think of calling "clear prop" in the same way we do any other part of the check list. The question is how do we easily allow the user to trigger this call? First, you have to have a window opened so what about this:

When you open a window while on the ground with the engine off (or a canopy), you will see a little pop up appear next to the window that maybe shows a little icon with a mouth opened saying "Clear PROP!" So all you do, is click on this and you will hear the voice? And depending on who is sitting in the pilot's seat will depend on the voice being female or male.

Scott.

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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:32 pm 
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Scott - A2A wrote:
Thinking about it, for the simulator, we could think of calling "clear prop" in the same way we do any other part of the check list. The question is how do we easily allow the user to trigger this call? First, you have to have a window opened so what about this:

When you open a window while on the ground with the engine off (or a canopy), you will see a little pop up appear next to the window that maybe shows a little icon with a mouth opened saying "Clear PROP!" So all you do, is click on this and you will hear the voice? And depending on who is sitting in the pilot's seat will depend on the voice being female or male.

Scott.


I like this idea with a caveat. The icon shouldn't be quite as "game oriented" as a face with an open mouth. LOL
Might I suggest since the icon is a trigger, something a bit more suitable to the serious simmer......perhaps a small propeller with the word "CLEAR" written under it.
D


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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:37 pm 
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You have to have clear prop on the checklist. On the Comanche when you open the little window you have to click in the open space and a voice will yell clear prop. If you don't do that every time then the program will eventually give you the start up with a broken prop.

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Some old computer stuff, some A2A airplanes, some Orbx scenery, and that's about it. I forget exactly what.


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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:49 pm 
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Scott - A2A wrote:
Thinking about it, for the simulator, we could think of calling "clear prop" in the same way we do any other part of the check list. The question is how do we easily allow the user to trigger this call? First, you have to have a window opened so what about this:

When you open a window while on the ground with the engine off (or a canopy), you will see a little pop up appear next to the window that maybe shows a little icon with a mouth opened saying "Clear PROP!" So all you do, is click on this and you will hear the voice? And depending on who is sitting in the pilot's seat will depend on the voice being female or male.

Scott.


I agree with you Scott. We open the window, click a icon and hear "Clear prop". This will add more realism to the sim than what you already provide with each release. But my question is would you add this feature to every Accu-Sim plane?


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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:55 pm 
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bullfox wrote:
You have to have clear prop on the checklist. On the Comanche when you open the little window you have to click in the open space and a voice will yell clear prop. If you don't do that every time then the program will eventually give you the start up with a broken prop.


It would be on the checklist of course. The icon would be there waiting to the side placed at some strategic spot. When going through the checklist and coming to engine start you would see the call "Clear Prop" on the checklist. You would then go to the icon and click it. You would then hear the voice return "Clear Prop".
All that remains now is getting rid of the icon. If that could be programmed into the trigger so that when the call was made, the icon disappeared that would be optimum.
DH


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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:47 am 
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When you are the pilot then it is you who makes the call.. why would you hear somebody else call it? do it, think it, but why make a sound for it and create any icons appearing or not appearing? the pilot turns the key, so he can use his voice. :roll: When I want it THAT realistic then it's actually logical to me to say it myself, as it's also me who reads the checklist. There's no "interactive" checklist that is reading out, it's always yourself with accusim who is responsible for the flight.

to be honest: when somebody is sitting under the prop and I start it, there is happening a little more then a stuck prop.. Then the flight or my engine is of little importance.. I don't think I would be sitting in any airplane anymore... well, maybe Con Air.

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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:57 am 
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I feel kind of neutral about this. But why not, even if just for having it, like the chocks etc.

Scott - A2A wrote:
When you open a window while on the ground with the engine off (or a canopy), you will see a little pop up appear next to the window that maybe shows a little icon with a mouth opened saying "Clear PROP!" So all you do, is click on this and you will hear the voice? And depending on who is sitting in the pilot's seat will depend on the voice being female or male.
Something along these lines would be perfect. I dislike the checklist idea because, well, I don't use one but make my own ones as required. Appearing either in some Shift+# menu or as a popup would be much smoother.

-Esa


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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:05 am 
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MarcE wrote:
to be honest: when somebody is sitting under the prop and I start it, there is happening a little more then a stuck prop.. Then the flight or my engine is of little importance.. I don't think I would be sitting in any airplane anymore... well, maybe Con Air.
In circles I've been in, the prop awareness has been taken pretty seriously, and idiots have been quickly put in line. If I was in position where I had to shout 'clear prop' and someone ran away from the prop arc area in response, I'd likely shoot him myself. Prop arc area is not a place to be without good reason even with cold & dark & empty airplanes. With occupied ones, it is absolutely inexcusable.

-Esa


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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:40 am 
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AKar wrote:
MarcE wrote:
to be honest: when somebody is sitting under the prop and I start it, there is happening a little more then a stuck prop.. Then the flight or my engine is of little importance.. I don't think I would be sitting in any airplane anymore... well, maybe Con Air.
In circles I've been in, the prop awareness has been taken pretty seriously, and idiots have been quickly put in line. If I was in position where I had to shout 'clear prop' and someone ran away from the prop arc area in response, I'd likely shoot him myself. Prop arc area is not a place to be without good reason even with cold & dark & empty airplanes. With occupied ones, it is absolutely inexcusable.

-Esa



The thing is, Accusim has always been a simultor engine to aim for maximum realism and a living engine. The cockpits created by A2A are 100% reflecting the cockpits they were using for research to not building in anything "magical" that happens or doesn't happen. None of the buttons in the cockpit do something they weren't designed for, they always have created their planes to simulate owning and running an airplane. Even the hand crank of the prop of the Cub was accessable from the cockpit. Ok, the preflight checks excluded.

Then with the T-6 it happened first that you HAD to do something from a pop up panel to actually make your engine start. you have to turn the prop by clicking on the panel. That was the first time, I didn't like something on an A2A airplane. I fully understand that this is made due to the limitations of FSX/P3D as you can't touch your airplane from the outside. As this is something that is absolutely mandatory with a radial engine I can live with this "quirk" although I find it not to be very elegant. There might have been other solutions, all other functions of the Shift 3 panel are not related to the flight or, if they are, they are accessable through the cockpit. But A2A decided to do it like this, I'm fine with that, it's one thing and I can stand in front of the airplane and click it as I would turn the prop in reality.

But now a function that is normally executed with your own voice by going through the checklist that all A2A customers have always been so proud of having in their top drawer shall be a clickspot or floating reminder somewere in the cockpit that hides or turns green or what else to simulate what you can do physically? I don't mean to stick withold habits, innovation is how you sell products and I don't have a better idea off the cut either. But in MY opinion this would have to be done a lot cleverer or it will be an immersion killer...

Maybe your key - if you have one - is hidden on top of the sun shade and grabbing it will trigger a sound 3 seconds later.. Similar stuff has been done by Marcel Felde with his Katana, I'm sure Scott and Co have plenty ideas ^^

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 Post subject: Re: Clear Prop Option
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:52 am 
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I see your point, Marc

I am not finding the use of popups too distracting for out-of-cockpit or impossible to reach functions, but I respect that many may feel different. Personally I like well-designed pop-up menus. (I actually find it more distracting that things are done in a way that PMDG and FSL did: introducing simulator functions via FMC, but my opinion lost in this! :D)

MarcE wrote:
Maybe your key - if you have one - is hidden on top of the sun shade and grabbing it will trigger a sound 3 seconds later.. Similar stuff has been done by Marcel Felde with his Katana, I'm sure Scott and Co have plenty ideas ^^
I like this one as well. The 150 I had some little time in, had a specific holder for the keys on the dashboard. Folks knew not to approach the aircraft if the keys weren't visible there.

-Esa


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