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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:34 pm 
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I tried some IFR flights today with a2a C182 and while i've done this approach many times before i've never joined the holding pattern after missed approach, and i am not sure how it is done correctly.

Here is the track of my flight:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4i98qf3affd2k ... d.png?dl=0

So i'm coming from northeast, doing a holding, continuing to SW, making a missed approach and coming from west to approach again, is my holding enter a correct one? And if so, how can i determine when to start the turn after i'm passed the VOR, so i do not over/undershoot. I just used my hunch on this one and it worked beautifully, but it was a pure considence.

And here is the approach chart if interested: (one of my favourites)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ubu4bpbrpe483 ... r.pdf?dl=0


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:57 pm 
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Airman

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Parallel entry.

Fly to the VOR on the missed approach when passing VOR fly outbound for one minute on the inverse heading for the inbound leg (40 degrees in this case). Turn right until inbound and able to intercept the 220R and turn left to enter the hold.
Looks like you used the teardrop entry, I never do because you can parallel entry into holds that qualify for the teardrop and then its one less thing I have to remember.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:01 am 
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Yeah thanks. In my mind, i am going towards the "incoming traffic" in paraller entry. Was my teardrop a correct one? Or should i've turn 30 degrees left on PVO VOR fly one minute then turn left to intercept?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:19 am 
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Kind of depends from which direction you come.

LINK

-Esa


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:54 am 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMBVJ_oEJRg

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:40 am 
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Sweet, a non standard hold after a missed approach. I would use a parallel hold entry for this one.

When in doubt and under pressure turn onto the outbound track. You now have 60 seconds to pick the proper direction to turn toward the protected side.

William

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:41 am 
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Looked at your track - nice entry using an offset and very precisely flown.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:53 am 
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I found this the most easiest:

Approach PVO VOR at correct radial (259), when above fix(VOR) i turn left 10 degrees or so (so that i have 30 degree difference to inbound leg, that is 40/220, so i'll fly to hdg 70 for one minute, then i'll do a standard turn to left and i'm inbound leg to PVO VOR, no guessing and situational awareness is maintained, if i do parallel i lose situational awareness more easily, maybe i do something wrong...

This teardrop is a bit different than the one in my original image, but looks more the ones in example pictures. Sadly i forgot to take screenshot.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:18 am 
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Airman

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Don't worry about flying outbound on the inbound leg for a parallel hold entry. There won't be any other traffic in the hold. It isn't like a traffic pattern. You should have it all to yourself.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:51 am 
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Okay so here's another holding i tried (it is a straight go-around from runway after vor approach)

I tried parallel entry on this one

https://www.dropbox.com/s/63ochoukr95rt ... l.png?dl=0

The actual holding point was supposed to be "DEKOT" but i was using vor only, R114 and 8 DME from VOR, maybe some difference in real life and fsx here... or i missed it ..

anyway, since the actual VOR is more far in this case the needle is less jumpy so this was actually easier. When i've done my one minute away from fix and i should do 270 degree turn, that's where i get a bit confused: should i use lubberline? in this case it was pretty easy but if the VOR itself is the fix i can easily either overshoot the radial if i come too steeply towards the radial, or vice versa if i go too shallow. So some tips for that maybe? Lubberline? Again, this is only issue if you are very near the VOR because the CDI just jumps across.

Anyway now i feel that i pretty much know how to enter holding patterns, for FSX purposes anyway =) thanks.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:04 pm 
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Ok, here is what I do for a VOR hold on a parallel entry. Lot's of different ways but I like this one.

When inbound to the VOR the course is set to whatever you need it to be and the needle provides course feedback in the normal manner.

When crossing the fix you do the T's: Turn onto the first outbound leg, note the Time, Twist the indicator to the *inbound* course, and Test the morse code identifier.

Now you have the VOR set up to allow you to intercept the inbound track using normal sensing on the needles. In this case you would have your big turn, and perhaps more or less depending on wind. I like to intercept a bit before arriving at the fix so I can be on the track and stable in time for the first right hand turn.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:06 pm 
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William Hughes wrote:
Ok, here is what I do for a VOR hold on a parallel entry. Lot's of different ways but I like this one.

When inbound to the VOR the course is set to whatever you need it to be and the needle provides course feedback in the normal manner.

When crossing the fix you do the T's: Turn onto the first outbound leg, note the Time, Twist the indicator to the *inbound* course, and Test the morse code identifier.

Now you have the VOR set up to allow you to intercept the inbound track using normal sensing on the needles. In this case you would have your big turn, and perhaps more or less depending on wind. I like to intercept a bit before arriving at the fix so I can be on the track and stable in time for the first right hand turn.


Yeah and that is easy if the VOR is far away but when you are using VOR as a fix the CDI is preeettty sensitive. Although, even it looks dramatic, if you just fly and look at the track, all went smoothly.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:09 pm 
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Location: Finland
One final question about NDB approach if i may.

https://www.ais.fi/ais/aip/ad/efsi/EF_A ... 32_NDB.pdf

How that works? If i am actually holding, i fly 1.5min legs at 2500?

If i am holding but coming to land, will i choose the 1min (i presume, shorter racetrack anyway) outbound leg, during which i go from 2500 -> 2000, turn back to inbound leg and soon after start to descent to 1450 then continue the approach as usual? The vertical profile is something i'm not used to.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:49 am 
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To follow up there is a fifth, T, that is to Talk and tell ATC you are entering the hold. I may be showing my age but you used to tell them when you are established as well but I don't think you do that anymore. Also, in my entire flying career I have never actually used a hold for real, but only in practice or during an IPC.

The chart you linked shows an NDB approach and lets presume it is a full non-vectored approach. So, while enroute you would get cleared for "an approach." You would then tell atc that you were doing the NDB approach.

At this point you are now cleared to conduct the approach and you've provided the details of which one. Now you'll be conducting a shuttle descent in the hold.

Maintain the last cleared altitude until over the beacon.
Enter the hold.
Descend to 2000' while in the hold
While at 2000' and established on the final approach begin the descent to the MDA.
Cross the beacon at no less than 1450' and start your timer for the missed.

Depending on how you were cleared to the approach you could descend to the MSA as shown in the compass quadrant, but you need to know that you are within 25 miles of the beacon somehow - dead reckoning from a previous fix, or a radar fix, or an intersecting radial. Those look to be 2100 to 2500' on the chart. Dead reckoning is called that for a reason, btw...

What the chart is telling you is that you can descent to 2000' as long as you stay in the protected area of the hold pattern and you won't hit anything (more properly you will maintain the published clearance from obstacles.) Once established on the last inbound leg (distances set by the 1.5 minute legs and the speed limit for holds) you can descend to 1450 feet and maintain clearances.

Once pas the beacon you can descend to the MDA and start looking for the field.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:42 pm 
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Thanks alot William.


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