A little dogfight hehe
A little dogfight hehe
A buddy of mine and I were flying around tonight and it somehow turned into a fight... lol*
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alias_unknown_2004
- Senior Airman
- Posts: 111
- Joined: 26 Nov 2004, 17:18
Nice! I've always wanted to do that in flight sim with, despite the lack of effects, etc....Some of you wanna get together and have a little dogfight just for fun? Maybe we could rely on the buddy system to know when one has shot down an aircraft (ie, holding the reticule on a plane for 6 seconds, or sticking to someones six for a minute, etc.)...it could be fun, especially with the P-51 and 109 
Amazes me how you do these things. Must be more difficult than the real thing?
Having flown both, it might be of passing interest to show my view of the Zeke's layout?
We had it on trials in 1946 & I was taking it up to the Delhi Air Display in 1946 when there was a fuel leak in the cockpit & 13 plugs ceased to function. Emergency landing!!
So I did not get to play it against the Tempest II, which was another of my pet steeds.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/ ... l/zeke.jpg
Having flown both, it might be of passing interest to show my view of the Zeke's layout?
We had it on trials in 1946 & I was taking it up to the Delhi Air Display in 1946 when there was a fuel leak in the cockpit & 13 plugs ceased to function. Emergency landing!!
So I did not get to play it against the Tempest II, which was another of my pet steeds.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/ ... l/zeke.jpg
Zeke's too nippy (no pun!!) for the Corsair?
Here's [i]my[/i] baby.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/ ... zeke52.jpg
Here's [i]my[/i] baby.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/ ... zeke52.jpg
Not about the ZTeke specifically, but Mr Elkington, do you remember how much and what training you got for such (from the RAF perspective) "exotic" airplanes? I understand the picture you linked to is a "memorizer" you created yourself at the time? Would you do stuff like do circuits in your mind, maybe even try to "train emegency procedures in your mind"? Did you have checklists?
Osram, Sir! I'll attempt an answer but it'll be a bit woolly. Stretching the memory a bit!!
1. The 'Exotics'? The diagram was an effort at identifying the Zeke's working parts. If a dial read from 0-28, for instance, we had to guess that it might be oil pressure - & so on, for all the knobs & knockers! Not very scientific. Probably did a run-up & a taxying test & then airborne. With the American & German aircraft, we had a brief from someone who had flown them. Handbooks for our own aircraft existed, of course, but I don't recall referring to them except, perhaps, in initial training. Temperatures, pressures, stall speed, fuel selection etc were quickly memorised.
2. Emergency procedures - very much so - especially in the 'multis' where one had a crew. Even down to live liferaft drills etc. On singles, an example would be a simple mnemonic such as TMPFF - throttle, mixture, pitch, fuel, flaps. On multis it was similar, but checked out with the second pilot or engineer. Much after my time, very full printed check lists were the vogue.
Put this somewhere before - can't recall where. The 'Exotic' & not-so-Exotic'! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/ ... /flown.jpg
Hope that helps?
1. The 'Exotics'? The diagram was an effort at identifying the Zeke's working parts. If a dial read from 0-28, for instance, we had to guess that it might be oil pressure - & so on, for all the knobs & knockers! Not very scientific. Probably did a run-up & a taxying test & then airborne. With the American & German aircraft, we had a brief from someone who had flown them. Handbooks for our own aircraft existed, of course, but I don't recall referring to them except, perhaps, in initial training. Temperatures, pressures, stall speed, fuel selection etc were quickly memorised.
2. Emergency procedures - very much so - especially in the 'multis' where one had a crew. Even down to live liferaft drills etc. On singles, an example would be a simple mnemonic such as TMPFF - throttle, mixture, pitch, fuel, flaps. On multis it was similar, but checked out with the second pilot or engineer. Much after my time, very full printed check lists were the vogue.
Put this somewhere before - can't recall where. The 'Exotic' & not-so-Exotic'! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/ ... /flown.jpg
Hope that helps?
Thanks, yes, very interesting 
.
I had heard some stories of let's say very short introductions to new types before and that made me curious.
For example I heard of a guy that had to fly shot down enemy aircraft so also no manuals available and also he had to investigate and train himself. He had found out all the instruments etc needed for a flight and took off. When he wanted to land the gear did not extract and he had to start searching for the emergency gear lever and finally found it by groping under the seat where you can not see it.
Even more extreme in my mind was the regular training at the end of the war of prop pilots on the Me262 in Germany; They got a short talk, a sheet of paper with the circuit drawn and speed numbers besides it and had 30 min to sit in it and memorize the cockpit and off they went. I heard 3rd prty that one guy that flew in the US after the war (probably when Germany re-armed) that said type-training would have been much more in depth and - to use your phrase "scientific".
A lot of people in WWII had to quickly learn a lot of things and people back then already knew a lot about how to present things so people can learn them efficiently.
"Drills" certainly make sense where you do the real motions of say entering a life raft, exiting the plane etc, probably using the "real" machine (raft, plane).
However my question was directed more at "mind games".
For example I read an article by the hanggliding world champion where he described his "mind games" where he would just sit in a chair, "fantasize" of being in a competition flight and say think the thermals would be dying down, it's the end of the day, the goal is 20 km away, so what to do. He said doing this helped him a lot to make decisions (fast) when in the air. I think formula one drivers make similar things. reading I thought it would be even more useful for emergencies, say fantasize you hear a loud band in the engine and oil pressure drops, what do you do? Did people back then in the war situation do these things? Maybe even that say one guy would throw such a situation at the other guy?
.I had heard some stories of let's say very short introductions to new types before and that made me curious.
For example I heard of a guy that had to fly shot down enemy aircraft so also no manuals available and also he had to investigate and train himself. He had found out all the instruments etc needed for a flight and took off. When he wanted to land the gear did not extract and he had to start searching for the emergency gear lever and finally found it by groping under the seat where you can not see it.
Even more extreme in my mind was the regular training at the end of the war of prop pilots on the Me262 in Germany; They got a short talk, a sheet of paper with the circuit drawn and speed numbers besides it and had 30 min to sit in it and memorize the cockpit and off they went. I heard 3rd prty that one guy that flew in the US after the war (probably when Germany re-armed) that said type-training would have been much more in depth and - to use your phrase "scientific".
No problem! I certainly know I don't remember all the details of my first car and that's just 20 years ago!I'll attempt an answer but it'll be a bit woolly. Stretching the memory a bit!!
Hm, interesting!Handbooks for our own aircraft existed, of course, but I don't recall referring to them except, perhaps, in initial training.
Wow !Temperatures, pressures, stall speed, fuel selection etc were quickly memorised.
I see, yes.On singles, an example would be a simple mnemonic such as TMPFF - throttle, mixture, pitch, fuel, flaps.
A lot of people in WWII had to quickly learn a lot of things and people back then already knew a lot about how to present things so people can learn them efficiently.
"Drills" certainly make sense where you do the real motions of say entering a life raft, exiting the plane etc, probably using the "real" machine (raft, plane).
However my question was directed more at "mind games".
For example I read an article by the hanggliding world champion where he described his "mind games" where he would just sit in a chair, "fantasize" of being in a competition flight and say think the thermals would be dying down, it's the end of the day, the goal is 20 km away, so what to do. He said doing this helped him a lot to make decisions (fast) when in the air. I think formula one drivers make similar things. reading I thought it would be even more useful for emergencies, say fantasize you hear a loud band in the engine and oil pressure drops, what do you do? Did people back then in the war situation do these things? Maybe even that say one guy would throw such a situation at the other guy?
Oh, dear - you noticed that I avoided that question. because NO, I for one didn't fit that pattern.
I can see F1 drivers doing it - on a fixed circuit - but in the air it's always different? Except for a circuit pattern which is a very established thing. But one never lost sleep over it. But sailplanes - yes - same thing - I can imagine much thought being given to tactics.
Different, of course, on a bad weather talk-down, where everything had to be 'spot on'. I shall always be grateful to the Canadian controller who got us down in thick fog at night at Goose Bay. I had the crew breathing down my neck as we had to make 2 goes at it because the UK rate of descent was different to the Canadian. Had shocking toothache & piles at the time. Ow!!
Situations? No! Not in my view. Pity!!
Waffle waffle?
I can see F1 drivers doing it - on a fixed circuit - but in the air it's always different? Except for a circuit pattern which is a very established thing. But one never lost sleep over it. But sailplanes - yes - same thing - I can imagine much thought being given to tactics.
Different, of course, on a bad weather talk-down, where everything had to be 'spot on'. I shall always be grateful to the Canadian controller who got us down in thick fog at night at Goose Bay. I had the crew breathing down my neck as we had to make 2 goes at it because the UK rate of descent was different to the Canadian. Had shocking toothache & piles at the time. Ow!!
Situations? No! Not in my view. Pity!!
Waffle waffle?
Last edited by Tim on 30 Nov 2006, 06:14, edited 1 time in total.
Ah - hehe - I didn't want to "be pushy", I just thought I had not made it clear I was asking about "mind games" and not "drills". Anyway I am not very suprised that obviously they were at least not a major thing back then. I read that article when I was still an active hangglider pilot myself and tried it. Not for thermals or even competition as I never got that far, but for day-to-day dangers like a gust on final. However I have to admit it sounded better in theory than it worked for me. On the other hand with there being a ton more things that can go bad with a complex airplane than just a hangglider and of course with emergencies being much more common in war, I wondered.
Interesting talk.
Interesting talk
.That was a very interesting read. Thanks for that Mr. Elkington!!! I always enjoy reading this type of thing. Thanks for the words about the shots. I could keep myself out of his sights for the most part, and even though he was faster I'm sure it helped that the buddy I was with is more of a bomber pilot anyway... lol*
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