VIDEO: Cherokee - The Low Wing Wonder

[computerflyer]

If I'm reading the description correctly of the Cherokee for sale on ebay, 25 hours have been put on the plane since the engine/prop overhaul 8 years ago. I'd be concerned about internal engine corrosion damage with so little use.

Now that the latest A2A planes deteriorate and age while they are parked, I think I'll get the A2A Cherokee, let it sit on the tarmac (in my computer) with only about 3 hours of use per year, and see how it flies in 8 years.

[Bruce Hamilton]

Just delete the data files, she'll be brand new.

[L.A.]

If I'm reading the description correctly of the Cherokee for sale on ebay, 25 hours have been put on the plane since the engine/prop overhaul 8 years ago. I'd be concerned about internal engine corrosion damage with so little use.

Now that the latest A2A planes deteriorate and age while they are parked, I think I'll get the A2A Cherokee, let it sit on the tarmac (in my computer) with only about 3 hours of use per year, and see how it flies in 8 years.

Of course, A2A will have to program extensive data.............with the location and climate for each "individual" simulated airplane, to determine the amount of "rust".

BTW--- where I live, with somewhat lower humidity, isn't so bad.

[robains]

Speaking of aircraft maintenance, can someone tell me the requirements for maintaining GA aircraft? Is there one?

I like to do all my own maintenance from race cars to house items ... I have a hard time trusting the job to someone else as I know I take the time to do the work correctly myself and will look beyond any immediate issues (I have to do this every time I race my car, basically strip it down and go over every nut and bolt and I always find something). From what I've seen so far of small GA singles, they are extremely simple (assume that's to increase reliability) - far more simple than a race car.

Does the government/FAA get involved here ... are there such things maintaining your own aircraft or does it have to certified with an FAA approved mechanic?

Cheers, Rob.

[Great Ozzie]

Hi Rob

Speaking of aircraft maintenance, can someone tell me the requirements for maintaining GA aircraft? Is there one?

Oh wow, yes... plenty... a veritable cornucopia... a plethora of requirements...

I like to do all my own maintenance from race cars to house items ... I have a hard time trusting the job to someone else as I know I take the time to do the work correctly myself and will look beyond any immediate issues (I have to do this every time I race my car, basically strip it down and go over every nut and bolt and I always find something).

I can totally relate (Truck instead of a race car tho). I used to like to say, "If my house had wings, it would fly" as I had a high standard when doing any kind of repair on the homestead.

From what I've seen so far of small GA singles, they are extremely simple (assume that's to increase reliability) - far more simple than a race car.

Not so sure about that one. I haven't a clue about race cars. But I did spend four years at Purdue Univ. in their aircraft maintenance program (picked up a B.S. / A&P etc.)

Does the government/FAA get involved here...

You betcha.

are there such things maintaining your own aircraft or does it have to certified with an FAA approved mechanic?

L.A. could tell you about maintaining your own aircraft if you build one from a kit.

I don't know the scoop on LSAs since I have never dealt with them, but I suspect it would be the same for them as any GA aircraft. An owner is limited to what they can legally perform. Good news is tho, unlike your car shops, the maintenance shops I have known (and I think this typical) allow the owner to work along side an A&P for maintenance on their own aircraft.

Have a look at this article:
https://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/Ai ... nance.aspx
Specifically, the "Technical Information" section about halfway down.

One of the links from that page:
https://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/PI ... nance.aspx
great info on that page.

All work needs to be logged and signed off... either by the owner or A&P.

If you are going to participate in the maint. process, very good idea to read AC 43.13. That will cover the "How-To's" for general maintenance practices.
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies ... ntID/74417

FAA has a lot of great docs... pilot or mechanic -- "Handbooks & Manuals"
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies ... s_manuals/

Hth's
-Rob

[L.A.]

Maintenance, and building from a kit.

My plane (Van's RV6A) is inspected and classified as an "experimental". Since I built this plane, I obtained an additional license from the FAA, that looks like a laminated pilots license. Works like an A&P license, but only for this airplane. The FAA figures, that you built it, so you know how to maintain it. My Lycoming engine and Hartzell constant speed prop were the certified versions. I wanted to keep them that way. I installed the engine, prop, prop governor, all of the fuel lines, wiring, etc. I changed the oil, and had the equipment to check for compression, and mag settings.

For anything having to do with engine or prop teardown, I had someone, such as an A&P do it, with a signature in the logbooks. This was to keep the engine "certified", even though there are sometimes "questions" when a certified engine is installed on an experimental. Legally, since it was flown on an experimental, I could even take apart the engine, and re-build it. But then it would no longer be certified.

[pjc747]

Wow, there must be something wrong with it $26K?? A new 172R is $247,000 ... I know this is used but $26K ... must be missing something.

This is a fair price, maybe a little high for the final sale. You can get a Beechcraft Baron or Cessna 310 for $45-$60,000, and have a plane just as nice as the brand-new one, or a vehicle with more utility than a Mercedes-Benz (for the price point). Normally, the only people who buy these sorts of planes (like the 172) new are businesses or businessmen who use the price of the vehicle and depreciation as a tax deduction, thus having an airplane and no taxes for the same cost as no airplane and taxes.

As for airplane ownership, you must have an inspection done once a year (by the end of the month completed the year before) as required by the FAA. You must have virtually all parts (for a certified plane) be certified parts, which can be costly. Almost all work must be done by an A&P (Airframe and Powerplant) and be approved by an IA (Inspection Authorized) Mechanic (the IA can do both). So for your car, you could do all maintenance yourself, inspecting, parts, even do recall work. In an airplane, recall-like things are called AD's (Airworthiness Directives) and must be completed by an IA, or AD inspections done as part of a 100-hour inspection by the A&P. A normal GA airplane is going to use Avgas, which is 100LL fuel (low-lead); 100LL cannot be transported in the same trucks that car gas is, because of its lead content. Because of its low volume relative to cars, and extra shipping expense, you can expect to pay well over $5 a gallon, upwards of $8 or more! If you want your airplane to last while it sits most of the time, you might want a hangar, that can be expensive depending on location.

If you wanted to do 100% of the work on your airplane, you could home-build your airplane from scratch. The builder of an experimental airplane is authorized to perform all annual inspections and all service. Any airplane which you did not construct 51% of, requires an IA mechanic's signoff for major work. You could get your A&P and do all work yourself, but still pay an IA to do the official sign-off required. If you went through the long process of getting your A&P and finally your IA, you would need to do a minimum of 4 annual inspections each year to retain the IA license.

As for comparison with a racecar, its debatable. A racecar is going to have turbochargers, electronics and the like, but an airplane, even GA can have a wide array of avionics that are costly, the engines are costly, and everything is costly. A friend of ours put a brand-new Garmin G750 WAAS-GPS in his plane. That cost $15,000 for the GPS and installation; everything for an airplane must be certified, and that raises cost. Indeed an experimental airplane doesn't require certified equipment, but you likely will build it yourself, and it may not be as safe as a certified plane. In fact, the most accidents in GA are caused by pilots of experimental planes that they did not build.

All-in-all, airplane ownership can be relatively affordable and provide great utility. However, compared to a car, its expensive. Cars are under much less stress in their everyday work, thing last longer not because they are tougher, but because they are less stressed. You likely wouldn't buy a car which required such levels of cost, but that doesn't mean it isn't something you could afford. Like my Dad says, even if a Bonanza could cost you $50,000, that's $50,000 for a plane that today costs $700,000+, and the parts and service reflect that. Its like a Ferrari 356; you can get the mid-engine Ferrari that is attractive, performs well, and is fun, all for $40-60,000, but the parts and service are comparable to the brand-new Ferrari 458.

[robains]

Great information everyone ... so is a FoxBat A22 considered a "kit" (aka experimental)?

I'm definitely not liking the idea of required FAA certified mechanic ... did a quick check $600/hr just labor? No offense to any aircraft mechanics, but that seems a little steep ... what sort of maintenance intervals are we talking about on a 2000 172R for example ... say this one: http://www.controller.com/listingsdetai ... 321319.htm

Cheers Rob.

[pilottj]

There is an old joke in aviation...they asked the pilot, "Why do you fly?'
He replies...'It is cheaper than women, but not by much'

Nothing is cheap in aviation. Charts, books, medical exams, operating costs, insurance, airport fees. Buying airplanes is like choosing a car in the sense that you have a choice between a used plane that might have a high time airframe, vs an expensive new plane that comes with warranties. Kinda like buying a cheap high mileage car vs expensive brand new one, it depend on your needs, how often you plan on flying, and so on.

Cheers
TJ

[AKar]

what sort of maintenance intervals are we talking about on a 2000 172R for example

I can't really comment on the US way of basically requiring just an annual inspection for privately operated aircraft, however the way it is done in EASA differs (in principle at least) rather little from dealing with commercial airplanes. You have to approve a maintenance program, according to which the aircraft must be maintained for continuing airworthiness. In practice, it is pretty much just a compilation of different maintenance requirements, that is the ones from AMM, applicable ADs, SBs etc...

But anyway, if you maintain a light aircraft according to maintenance manual's requirements, there usually is a lighter maintenance done every 50 hours, and a larger one every 100 hours. Cessna also uses a 200-hour inspection in some cases. The 50-hour inspection is basically a change of oil and filters, giving some light treatment, a quick check like that. The hundereds are a little bit more involved. All the checks should be performed at least annually, regardless of flight hours.

Google found this SM of an older model 172 online, if you're interested. The list of checks begin from page 2-22 (38 in the pdf). In current production 172, the maintenance manual looks entirely different, and there are quite some differences in the requirements too.


Oh by the way, maintenance shops often give fixed prices for the common checks of usual aircraft types. That is 'fixed' as long as they found something of additional work, which is of course then added to that. An educated eye can find, from an older plane, surprisingly much stuff that is broken, is illegal, tries to kill you, is done wrong and so on. If a smoking wreck is pushed into maintenance, the invoice may be rather astronomical when it's all patched up and documented again.

-Esa

[pjc747]

Great information everyone ... so is a FoxBat A22 considered a "kit" (aka experimental)?

I'm definitely not liking the idea of required FAA certified mechanic ... did a quick check $600/hr just labor? No offense to any aircraft mechanics, but that seems a little steep ... what sort of maintenance intervals are we talking about on a 2000 172R for example ... say this one: http://www.controller.com/listingsdetai ... 321319.htm

Cheers Rob.

Yes, a Foxbat would count. The way it works is you must build the airplane from scratch, yourself, specifically, at least 51% of the construction must be performed by you. Say you got a wrecked, rotted-out 1941 Piper Cub, and it was so bad that you made an all-new steel tube fuselage, prefabricated every wooden part such that the airplane was 100% new except the data plate (which makes it the 1941 Cub), it would not count as a home-built airplane. Why? Because it is a certified airplane. So the plane you build must be an experimental plane, that you built scratch from plans, or as what is called a 'quick-build' kit that has multiple parts, stabilizers, surfaces, fiberglass, etc. pre-fabricated, and you must assemble the pieces, install engines and systems, etc; its a lot like a model plane. There is one other option, albeit very limited. Glasair Aviation makes a wonderful airplane called the Glasair Sportsman 2+2; its a home-built experimental plane that has 2 seats plus two smaller seats in the back, has 180-210hp, and can be made a tricycle, taildragger, float, amphibious, or ski-plane with only an hour to convert it (see Sportsman link below). Although more costly than the average plans or quick-build kit, their program, called 'Two Weeks to Taxi' is approved by the FAA as the customer being 51% the builder of the plane. You go to the factory in Washington, and they teach you how everything is put together. They have all the materials, all the supplies, all the tools, and they have a program that makes it such that in two weeks you go from a bunch of pieces to an airplane that can tax and be close to flight. The Glasair employees do half the work, but they make it so simple that you can build it quicker than any other experimental plane, and end up as the builder authorized to do all maintenance, waiving the IA mechanic requirement. So if you have the money available and realize its utility, it would be a very attractive option, not to mention that you can trust it was built properly and with quality, because you were guided by professional workers.

http://glasairaviation.com/sportsmanspecs.html

Two Weeks to Taxi: http://glasairaviation.com/twtt.html

As for annual inspections, it works like this. If last year's inspection was completed on May 5, 2013, you have until May 31, 2014 to complete the next inspection (if you want to keep it legal and airworthy). In the inspection, everything is taken apart, all the panels opened, and inspected, the engine has compression tests done, the mechanic looks for any and all problems which may be hazardous to operation. If something is found to be serious, the mechanic will ground the airplane until that is fixed. If you have retractable gear, you put the plane on jacks to test the system, if you have a variable-pitch prop, the spinner is removed and mechanism is inspected. Having seen it done many a time on our family's plane, I can say it is very involved, and we spent at least a week doing everything. Additionally, say you take your plane to a maintenance shop to have something done (outside of the inspection), and they find your compass suddenly stopped working. The shop will ground your airplane and be required to do the maintenance, although you could have put the new one in as the owner, stuff like this can happen. If your airplane is for hire (i.e. instruction, airline) it must be inspected like an annual every 100hrs of operation.

I personally hope the FAA changes the annual inspection policy to biannual or triennial, because from what I've heard an read, you are more likely to experience an accident after the annual inspection. When everything is taken apart, things can be forgotten, and when pieces are routinely taken apart and put back together, they wear out much quicker, and makes an accident more likely.

I saw you say earlier you had a hard time trusting other people's work on your things. When it comes to airplane maintenance, you have to still be careful, but an IA is required to have a large deal of training, education, and one-the-job experience prior to being certified. One thing, avoid buying a mechanic's plane, no offense to any around here, but in the sales market, the mechanic's plane is the one not taken care of as well as his customer's.

[Scott - A2A]

Rob,

We sound very similar in our approach to maintenance and safety. First, there are a lot of things the owner of an airplane is allowed to do and sign off themselves that falls under preventative maintenance (http://www.121five.com/admin/FeatureArt ... enance.pdf).

The above amounts to a lot of work and most aircraft owners choose not to do those. Beyond this you just need to find a good mechanic to work with.

Regarding the Cherokee 180 on eBay, that is cheap. We call planes that sit like this for years "hangar queens." Many won't touch one and therefore the price comes way down.

Scott.

[robains]

I'm glad I asked this question ... thank you everyone for all the very detailed and helpful answers.

I'll look into the Glasair Sportsman 2+2. Glad to see the Foxbat A22 is considered a kit aircraft ... my aircraft purchase plans are still intact!

And yes, I see many "hanger queens" at my local FBO ... which sorta makes me wonder "what happened?", if ya know what I mean.

Cheers, Rob.

[pilottj]

Lol yeah, the flip side to the Hangar Queen, is be wary of the ex-trainer with a high time airframe. You know that airframe was subjected to hours and hours of student abuse lol.

[CAPFlyer]

$600/hr does sound high, but it depends on what that $600/hr is for. There's a couple things to consider with A&P vice ASE -

1) ASE tech/mechanic does not have to "sign off" on anything to maintain the vehicle's road-worthiness - A&P's do.
2) ASE tech/mechanic does not assume personal liability for any and all repairs performed - A&P's do.
3) ASE tech/mechanic does not REQUIRE a 4-6 year program to become fully certified to include an apprenticeship - A&P's do.

Also, if you're working with a "one man" A&P, his labor is not only covering his actual labor cost, but his liability insurance (not trivial), his tools (not cheap), and his transportation or hangar (neither of which are cheap). If you're going through a shop, the labor rate might be a tad less because their employees get a discount on their personal liability insurance and the shop itself has an umbrella policy that also helps with those costs. They also have enough throughput of aircraft that they can spread the overhead more. A one-man band may only be able to work on 2-3 airplanes a month, especially if they're all annuals or 100-hours.