MSFS2020 is completely unrealistic with new wind model

[DHenriques_]

Dudley,

regarding your comment about Asobo refusing to work on the ground model, I sincerely hope that they have waited for them to complete the influencing surroundings and climb the mountain from the base. If they had fixed their terrible ground friction model now and added these turbulence/gust effects later they would probably have had to start with the ground model again. The gusts won't be affected by ground friction but a takeoff run will definitely be affected by gusts. So I HOPE they have a plan behind all that. Right now I don't see a usable MSFS since TO and landing belong to a flight, I'd never start and end it in the air, even in a sim, but I hope it will become better soon.

I don't believe I ever said "Asobo refused to work on the ground model". I'm sure you misunderstood my meaning. No harm done.

Apologies, yes, English is a foreign language for me, "refuse" is indeed a too strong word. =)

No problem at all. I completely understand. My foreign language skills are horrible as well. LOL

[ClipperLuna]

At risk of taking this conversion into the weeds, a thought occurred to me. If Asobo really wants to please the people who see this as a game rather than a simulator, why not do it like Truck Simulator. A random passenger generator that also gives you a random destination for them within the capabilities of the plane.

I don't really see an atmospheric model that makes things more "fun" on landing the key to long-term success. If you are the "game" type, how long could that particular brand of fun really last?

[Bones]

MSFS, the Fortnite of Flight Simulation. I hope not.

[ClipperLuna]

MSFS, the Fortnite of Flight Simulation. I hope not.

I hope not too, though the idea of someone rage-quitting a flight sim session is kind of funny.

[AKar]

It is often difficult to discern what is brilliant and what is bullshit.

Perseverance is brilliant. Some aspects of the MSFS2020 atmospherics are brilliant. The graphics thereof are also absolutely brilliant.

There are other rather brilliant things as well.

The hype before the launch and supposedly replacing all the hard work done by any 3rd parties before on FSX/P3D is bullshit. By that way forcing the top-producers to announce premature releases on cool graphics and nonsense dynamics on MSFS is bullshit.

There are other rather bullshit things as well.

-Esa

[einherz]

It's another pointless debate that I don't want to get into, but I think Asobo are trying to make a sim that suits ALL. A noble goal, and one they will never fully achieve for all manner of reasons, but all progress has some setbacks along the way. The overall net result is a positive one. MSFS is certainly more accessible than any clunky sim before it. Yes, it brings in gamers, but did none of you ever fly around for "fun" in external view and zoom under bridges in simulators of old, back when you were younger? The serious flying - for many users - came later I suspect

I haven't flown SU10 much yet, but if you're using live weather then I am sure gusts will vary depending on reported conditions, so while one person might rave about them, the next may be horrified. A compromise might be a menu option to allow users to reduce gusts by a percentage, so if you're in the camp that they're way too strong, you can reduce them. We'll see.

I found FSX and all previous simulators to be quite stale in terms of atmospheric modelling; the old 'on rails' feeling. I have never had that in MSFS where the air feels alive and natural. No, MSFS doesn't have the best ground physics, I agree there, but I certainly don't find them any worse than FSX where it almost felt like the flight model 'turned off' the moment you contacted the runway. Perhaps the problem is that the atmospheric modelling improvements have outpaced the outdated ground contact model, so now we have a new problem we didn't have before.

The ATC is a definite step backwards, I agree with Dudley there. On a related note, it's also frustrating that you can't change your flight plan mid-flight, such as if you run into IFR conditions and didn't bother to set your destination in the world map before take off. Same as if you do a second flight in the same session. The ATC has no knowledge so can't direct you. FSX had that at least.

hehehe. nah. i never use any games like that(3rd person) yes i played alladin, prince of persia, ufo, even age of empires... but all of that not mine at all. mine is fps and flight simulators without any compromises. so. no i never flew with 3rd person view, ah, except airfix dogfighter lol...... but only because in all games i mention no first person view:) in il2 2000-2006 i set closed external views, to avoid that crazyness. same in all simulators where in options i could block external views. well some of them could save flight, and for watch saved flight i disable blocked options for see as the god flight muhahaha... actually your question about external is offended gagaga. really. what the enjoy if you aren't character inside vehicle, not look only by eyes of nomad, ajay ghale, michael sykes... whoever... actually when i see on youtube games when jump and run some personage, i think to my self, omg, why people play that... ah and i played fancy pants yet... but nobody seen that hahaha
about atc. i preffer saved voices in some missions but i hate to use atc or something what i relly don't need. i see any simulator as my own world where i'm only one possible atc lol. so i just watch when oil hot enough and pressure of fuel and oil ok and taxi to the runway. when go landing make some circles whatch it's free and then landing, or if not, and i want landing right now land on the taxiway or grass if ac legs ok for that.
about gust i may not agree more. i feel it's so cool. and btw found video in youtube there real pilot confirm su10 gusts much more real... when i first flight im msfs in the valley between mountains. omg. i remember fsx mission where you fly mauli to save crashed guy. there was created pressure drop in scenery. in msfs it's so cool from first version. air as you said is live, nowhere so cool... in my way even absent of a2a mustang can not push me back to fly plastic p3d. about fsx i forgot first day i install p3d. about p3d i forgot first day i seen msfs in youtube:) i need only 3 stuff from past. hi fi weather + rex textures. because that's looks cool much sharper than live clouds. so i need live volumetric clouds from msfs but looks like was in hifi+rex. then a2a mustang and vrs super hornet... sure other fighters from a2a but not such as mustang that i really need and everyday cry about

[Mustang]

Like you, I also aim for immersion when playing a simulator. I don't fly flight simulators from external view, like I won't drive a racing simulator or truck simulator from an external view. I want to 'pretend' I am there, doing that thing for real. BUT, there are times when I am fooling around, experimenting with the game, testing the physics etc. that I would use external view (including for screenshots). Also, when I first started using modern flight simulators (by "modern" I mean the likes of Flight Unlimited II, or the old IL-2), that I would just enjoy seeing what the sim was capable of doing, such as damage modelling during crash-landings, or physics as you bump along the runway being stupid. So, there is room for both serious in-cockpit simming, and external silliness The only simulator I used with no external view was F-16 Combat Pilot on the Amiga. As a kid, I found that very tough but I stuck with it!

What most 'classic' gamers would want from MSFS is the ability to shoot guns, drop bombs, and blow things up. That's what your typical game consists of, to some extent. But Asobo will never add that. So, the fact we are seeing so many "gamers" using MSFS is surely a good sign that they don't all want to destroy everything, and so I'm sure that some people will learn to love - and begin to take seriously - what we've been doing for years with our simulators. The rest will get bored and move on, as the game won't offer enough instant gratification or a rewards/achievement/unlock system that keeps you coming back for more.

My point is that there is room for both crowds (gamers & simmers) to use MSFS, provided it's accessible, scalable (in terms of difficulty) and also realistic. It is most of those things already. Things are getting better, slowly...

[MarcE]

I'm confused now.

Last night I overcame my doubts and purchased the Ant's Airplanes' Tiger Moth. I LOVED it in P3D, just as much as the Accusim T-6. Vero Amore <3. Anyway... I fired up WMD and MSFS, entered its VR and placed the Moth on a little airflield in Wales. Takeoff was flawless, almost a little too easy, too straight forward, too little torque. I needed no rudder at all, even in flight. I looked at the ailerons, the outside aileron always moved down much less than the inside aileron, which is how they have built airplanes for ages to reduce the aileron induced yaw. I wasn't aware that they did that that early though. Still, it should require rudder for coordinated flight, I'm pretty sure of that. Every manual airplane does that, even a VL-3 does it a bit. But well, that's the sim I guess. Accusim, sadly missed.

BUT! That wind model. I flew in real weather and the plane just shaked slightly. Only a bit, just as I'm used to from a C172 or WT9. No flipping over, no blowing across the airfield, nothing, nada, super controllable landing. Not easy but totally managable. So... Is this depending on the skill of the aircraft developer? Or have Asobo tweaked it on the server side? Que s'est-il passé?? I'll still have to try it with other planes but that Moth has quickly evolved to my top list with the DC-6, despite that missing yaw effect.

[Mustang]

Live weather can be quite varied. In the atmospheric model, it will account for the fact that there is less turbulence in the morning compared to the afternoon and evening. The sun angle (therefore heat generation) also has an effect I believe. Or if not, it will in future.

The only way to really compare two aircraft in the same conditions is to fly them immediately back-to-back in live weather, or to fly in weather conditions which have been manually configured and are therefore consistent.

The C172 also has new settings in SU10 related to the scaling down of crosswind at low speeds and tyre friction. I don't believe other aircraft have it yet. In this case, the crosswind scaling effect has been removed on the 172 as far as I know. I read plenty about it on the MSFS forums but can't say with absolute certainty, especially as there are now a few C172 models in the sim.

[Arman45]

Well I'm personally done with MSFS2020. Just lost control of the default Bonanza on takeoff with a 5kt crosswind component (kid you not). Might as well have been taking off in a hurricane with the severely bugged MSFS2020 wind model in it's present form. I could accept all of the compromises with the MSFS2020 flight model up until the point Asobo made things much worse after the mandatory SU10 update, but no more. I have a real-world Private Pilot license (USA) and just over 350hrs TT in various single engine G/A aircraft. I fully realize this hardly makes me the world's foremost expert on aerodynamics but at present, from my own real-world flying experience, MSFS2020 is so unrealistic in terms of ground physics that it's simply an arcade video game until the aircraft becomes airborne.

I am so happy going back to P3D and experiencing exponentially higher fidelity in terms of aerodynamics, ATC, and weather, relative to MSFS2020, that the latter simply isn't relevant for me personally anymore. Instead of wasting money investing in MSFS2020 addons, I would much rather devote all resources to products for DCS World.

I sincerely wish A2A the very best moving forward with their MSFS2020 development, but I really hope they will at least consider continuing development for P3D. And maybe DCS World someday.

[MarcE]

Well I'm personally done with MSFS2020. Just lost control of the default Bonanza on takeoff with a 5kt crosswind component (kid you not). Might as well have been taking off in a hurricane with the severely bugged MSFS2020 wind model in it's present form. I could accept all of the compromises with the MSFS2020 flight model up until the point Asobo made things much worse after the mandatory SU10 update, but no more.

That's a huge mess at the moment, totally unbearable and unacceptable. Apparently Asobo is aware of it but as far as I know no comments about any priority of fixing it. The ground friction model and reaction to wind on the ground is bullshit and I use this word intentionally because what they do here starts to become insulting. Almost all airplane are unusable for takeoff and landing now with very very little exceptions. We can only hope that Asobo eventually starts to use their god given brains. This sim could be so wonderful. They want to bring gliders and helicopters with the next Sim Update, I wonder how they want to present them with this wind situation? Entire nonsense.

I fully agree with DCS Its flight and physic model is great and even though it's almost as buggy as MSFS and P3D together it's still very much usable and a lot of fun. A2A in A2A aircraft, harrrr

[jsbrewster1]

I find it odd, I've flown a dozen flights since SU10, in calm winds, gusty winds, and 14 knots of crosswind, in a 172, and I've never seen what you are all describing. I just flew the Bonanza and still no issues. I'm not saying it's not happening, obviously, just weird that it's affecting you so much and me not at all.

[einherz]

sorry, but all complain about physic i see as psychosomatic part of perceptions and habits, i'm not real pilot, but i know in real you have some bonus sensations, and as in any type and version of flight simulator, all of that go to your deep feeling thru compensation, you just become unconscious aircraft you drive and legs with hand do their work. that's it. you can not say how real it is because 90% of your movies beyond your recognition. and then when you got changed stability, torque, precession, p-factor in general or individual ac model. you will feel it's broken. sure. some time it's obviously broken. but most of situation lie in that bed, where updated model however it les or more close to real, invade in your brain like barbarian and create illusion of the end of the world. actually human don't push pedals and stick by certain force for takes her right way. but just corrects her by different controls in viper or sopwith camel. i sure any deep analysis will show how far simulator far from real, one will closer than another, but all of them as all of models will far enough for push you laugh about you thought about it before. you will laugh, but for me biggest problem in all flight simulators is absent of trimmer feedback surfaces and controls, when i rotate elevator trim to aggressive elevation and look back i see elevator surfaces stay in neutral and see aircraft go up, and that almost make me sick. same about ailerons or rudders. stick or pedals in wire controlled ac. this is deeply wrong, all another just different implementation, what you can take philosophically... btw even a2a didn't modeling that(surfaces trim reactions).. for me that is the nonsense in every single aircraft in all simulators. in old il-2 yak had that. but there was another compromise - there trimmers moves surfaces and stick even with zero airspeed. but even that way better than modeling in all other flying vehicles

[einherz]

I find it odd, I've flown a dozen flights since SU10, in calm winds, gusty winds, and 14 knots of crosswind, in a 172, and I've never seen what you are all describing. I just flew the Bonanza and still no issues. I'm not saying it's not happening, obviously, just weird that it's affecting you so much and me not at all.

same. btw in corsair so much modelling g-stability, that you may not see different su9 with su10 . so actually who think ac like paper in su10 can just change flight cfg or whatever and add stability. don't remember what exactly some like g-stability pitch/yaw/roll or something like that
couple a words to my post above this one. in real when you run stick or pedals can go out of neutral and you will correct them. in simulator they are all time still center so long as you don't touch them, it's same problem of trimmers don't give effect to visual deflection of surfaces and controls

[Wakner]

I find it odd, I've flown a dozen flights since SU10, in calm winds, gusty winds, and 14 knots of crosswind, in a 172, and I've never seen what you are all describing. I just flew the Bonanza and still no issues. I'm not saying it's not happening, obviously, just weird that it's affecting you so much and me not at all.

Yeah, I concur.

Been flying Ant's Tiger a lot and really enjoying the MSFS wind model with it, especially in mountainous terrain - its like flying a powered glider ... ridge lift on the windward side is fun and you do have to be careful of downdrafts/turbulence on the leeward side, although I don't think rotors off the back of ridges are modeled(?). I've not yet been overpowered by unrealistic wind conditions in any phase of flight.

Ditto the Fenix and Milviz 310.

My gut feeling is that many of the wind-related problems are mainly likely to be caused by the how a dev sets up the aircraft rather than the main fault lying with the Asobo model.

Just my own opinion though! Cheers.