Against orders

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wnyowell
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Against orders

Post wnyowell »

You may remember that my older brother was a P-47 pilot. Through the Internet I have met his buddy in the 316th Fighter squadron. I thought he might enjoy the U-Tube Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P8Ps391 ... re=related So I sent it to him. He responded that he would not have wanted to land with two 500 lb. bombs on board. He said that if they returned from a mission unable to drop their bombs (usually because the target was socked in), they would drop their bombs in a lake nearby. If a bomb was hung up and they couldn't release it, they were under orders to bail out. While he had done so in training, when he got in a compressibility situation in a dive, he didn't have to in France or Germany.

Knowing your search for realism, I thought you'd like to know.
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Re: Against orders

Post Lewis - A2A »

Hello,

We didn't make that video one of our customers did.

Our new Thunderbolt is wonderful to fly and with the accu-sim module is simply amazing. Can you please let us know were your brother was based?
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wnyowell
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Re: Against orders

Post wnyowell »

Yes, Lewis,

He was based in Luneville, France. He flew 62 missions, mostly dive bombing. He was shot down on March 19, 1945 on a dive bombing mission over the marshaling yards in Pforzheim, Germany. He bailed out, but his parachute didn't open, probably because both his arms were broken, likely as he exited the spinning plane. A French slave laborer and his son were in the Seehaus Forest and saw the plane and Jack come down. They reached him and he was still breathing, but he died in their arms. Not wanting the Germans to find him and "bury him like a dog", they buried him in his parachute. They retrieved some personal effects, likely including his .45 cal. pistol, possibly using it to escape.

After liberation, they reported his location to the French authorities, but nothing was done. He wrote to a French newspaper, and after two searches, he was located in 1948 and reinterred in a military cemetery in Belgium. At our parents' request he was removed to Arlington National Cemetery near Washington D.C.

He was MIA, and I didn't know any of this, except that his body had been found, until a couple of years ago. I came across an envelope of one of his letters and "Googled" 324th Fighter group. I met Jerry over the Internet and received the Individual Deceased Personnel File, which contained the above information, and more. Jerry has sent me photographs of my brother which I hadn't seen in over 60 years. Of course Jerry and the others in the squadron hadn't learned what had happened, either; our mother had requested no press release when his body was found. I was eleven when he went down.
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JJB17463rdBombGroup
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Re: Against orders

Post JJB17463rdBombGroup »

Bill have you been at this website and especially their forums?
http://www.armyairforces.com/
http://forum.armyairforces.com/324th-FG-f357.aspx
http://www.armyairforces.com/Databases/ ... fault.aspx
It can be quite amazing what you can find out.
Here are some other links.
http://www.footnote.com/documents/28597 ... orts_wwii/
http://www.324thfighter.org/324news/html/324news-2.html
http://www.geocities.com/raf_112_sqdn1/ ... _roll.html
If you have already been to these sites forgive me. Is this the aircraft that he was shot down on ? AAF serial number 42-28590 on 3/19/1945 Missing Air Crew Report (MACR) number 13118 in the 324th Fighter Group on a P-47
The documents about MACR 13118 on footnote are quite detailed.I see the nickname of the aircraft was Wee Three on one of the documents and that the squadron was attacked by 8 to 10 Me-109's.
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wnyowell
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Re: Against orders

Post wnyowell »

JJB,
Thank you so much. I haven't time at the moment to delve into those websites, but yes, his plane was "Wee Three". It was so named by the pilot to whom it was previously assigned, who had finished his tour. Jack wrote that he was considering having the name changed. Possibly you have found information that I don't have, although I do have a copy of the MACR. It even has the serial numbers of the eight machine guns and the gun camera. I wish that camera and its film could be found.

They were attacked out of the sun by eight to twelve ME-109s. The jettisoned their bombs and turned to meet the MEs, which turned away. The MEs attacked again, and according to the flight leader's report, "Lt. Yowell's plane was not" in formation after that attack. Another pilot saw a P-47 smoking and spinning, with the canopy off and the pilot attempting to bail out. The flight leader shot down one of the ME-109s.

Later today I'll check out all of those sites. In addition to the IDPF, I received a CD-ROM with the MACR.
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wnyowell
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Re: Against orders

Post wnyowell »

JJB,

Now I've looked at those sites. I hadn't seen any except the 324th Groups', which led me on my quest. There were suggestions where to write, although the first responses were that the records I was looking for had probably been destroyed in the warehouse fire in the early seventies (along with my Army records, but I have a copy of my Separation order and Honorable Discharge).
Then a big envelope arrived with 81 pages of copies of the IDPF. I was shocked to learn of the French slave laborer who witnessed Jack's death.

Looking at one of the sites, I see that it indicates that Jack Haun claimed an ME 109 on the same date. My brother was flying wing to Haun on that day as well as a couple of weeks earlier when they both shot down an ME. But Jack Barnes, the flight leader, claimed the kill in his report. Who knows? I wrote an article for the squadron newsletter and Jack Haun's brother e-mailed me. He said that his brother had never spoken of the war until shortly before his death in the mid-nineties. Apparently he was very disturbed that he had lost a wingman. Several of the squadron have written me with compliments about my brother. He is said to have a ready smile and to be gung-ho. There is no question from reading his letters that he believed in what he was doing.

Last year I attended both the squadron and group reunions. No one except Jerry knew Jack. But now I've a bunch of new friends and my wife an I will be attending the next group reunion. Incidentally, the one scheduled in September was postponed due to the Hurricane which hit Charleston.

It is rescheduled on March 19th, coincidentally the date Jack was lost and also the day that the 324th flew its most sorties.

You have nothing to apologize for; I thank you for your interest. Fell free to email me if you have more to discuss.
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JJB17463rdBombGroup
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Re: Against orders

Post JJB17463rdBombGroup »

Bill I noticed that you put listed your brother's name and service at the National WW2 memorial.Good Job.
It's very tragic that you lost your older brother when the war was almost at the end.
In my dad's bomb group about 1 in 3 combat vets survived the war so my dad was pretty lucky.
Wow so your brother had 62 combat missions or is it 64 as I see on that RAF honor Roll website.
That's a lot of missions more than my dad had.
Do you have a list of your brother's combat missions with dates,aircraft flown etc.?
If you do it would be nice if you could post them here.
The army air forces [dot] com website is perhaps the best website out there about the USAAF.
You should join this forum as the members and USAAF vets are very helpful with any questions.
You have a great day and a happy New Year Sir-Jon
Son of a U.S.A.A.F. 15th Air Force 463rd bomb group 772nd squadron B17 pilot.
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wnyowell
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Re: Against orders

Post wnyowell »

Hi Jon,

We had always understood he was on his 65th mission. The Mission reports seem to indicate 61 or 62. I have copies of all his mission reports. I have prepared a time line of his high school graduation on. From it I have abstracted the entries pertaining to his missions and some other material that might be found interesting.

JJY or Jack is my brother; MR means "Mission Report"; wm means "wing man"; TU indicates the time they took off, TOT is the time over target, and TD is the time they landed. Most missions were about two hours, a lot shorter than your dad's bomber missions. The number required for rotation was 100, although we always believed that it was 60 and that he was past the requirement. That wasn't the only thing that we had wrong: We thought the German planes were FW-190s.

Anyway here is the abstract:

18 September 1944: Along with 13 other pilots, flew from the Naples replacement center to Amberieu in Southern France, having been assigned to the 324th Fighter Group. Flew in unarmed unescorted C-47 to France, “all of us were peering out the windows, looking for German fighters.” (Jerry Wurmser) Then assigned to 316th Fighter Squadron (324th Fighter Group consisted of 314th, 315th and 316th Fighter Squadrons)

The Squadron had moved to Dole - Tavaux, took a day to catch up with it (JJY letter, Wurmser) Jack wrote us that he had gone into town to a carpenter shop next to the birthplace of Louis Pasteur. We immediately looked it up – Dole. Jerry Wurmser told me he did the same thing.

2 October Broke a bone in his had when a plane swung around and the tail hit his hand.

30 October Returned to Flight status, the broken bone in his hand having healed.

1 November First transition training flight since in 316th Squadron

16 November TU 1210 TD 1155 Dive Bombing target gun position. Due to weather, unable to reach target. Bombs jettisoned safe in wooded area. (Mission Report 597: plane # 72) JJY wm to Flight leader Porter

17 November TU 1430 TOT 1455 TD 1540 Dive Bombing – 6 260 lb frag bombs -Troop Contentration (MR 601; Plane # 74) JJY wm to Capt. Scheiwe who aborted – unable to retract wheels

18 November TU 0740 TOT 0850 TD 1015 Dive Bombing 12 planes with 12 planes of 314th Squdron – Attacked Supply and ammo dumps (MR 603: plane # 74) JJY wm to Lt. Porter, the flight leader

19 November TU 0940 TOT 1010 TD 1130 Dive Bombing 4 plane flight Target: Four gun positions – 6 five hundred pound bombs in target area (MR 608; plane # 90) JJY wm to Lt. Porter, the flight leader

22 November TU 0830 TD 0910 Dive Bombing – Railroad bridge – bad weather, jettisoned bombs safe in river south of field (MR 617: plane # 74) JJY wm to Lt. Porter

3 December TU 0845 TOT 1020 TD 1110 Dive Bombing Target supply dump. Bad weather, Got permission from “Boxcar” to bomb Rhine River canal bridge (MR 626: plane # 70) JJY wm to Lt. LeGette

3 December TU 1230 TD 1330 Dive bombing mission to Strasburg. Bad weather, jettisoned bombs in river, close to base (MR 627; plane # 80) JJY wm to Porter

14 December TU 1210 TOT 1335 TD 1445 Bombed alternate target at Buchalberg (MR 633; plane # 83) JJY wm to LeGette

16 December TU 1515 TOT 1650 TD 1750 Dive bombing, weather prevented finding assigned target, flight saw train, attacked it; damaged it. (MR 635; plane #81) JJY wm to Allen

18 December TU 1445 TD 1615 Recce mission: route of Pirmasons, Kaiserlautern, Mannheim, Landau. Turned back due to weather; bombs jettisoned in river south of field. (MR 638; plane #76) JJY wm to Pardue

23 December TU 0825 TOT 0946 TD 1050 Armed Recce Bad weather; redirected to Pirmasens; cloud cover, saw town through break in clouds, turned out to be Waldfischbach. All bombs in target area (MR 642; plane #86: JJY wm to Lt. Thompson

24 December Completed 10 missions (JJY letter) Looks like 11. Maybe date on letter is wrong.

29 December TU 1310 TOT 1500 TD 1600 Bombed Fuel dump; Wurmser, Haun + 13 others on flight (MR # 650; plane # 85) JJY wm to Pyle

1945
2 January Moved to Luneville, France

4 January TU 1440 TOT 1530 TD 1600 Fighter Sweep; strafed 10 gun positions at Bitche, silenced 6. Strafed and silenced approximately 20 guns firing from castle at Bitche. (MR 659; plane # 78) JJY wing man to Pyle

8 January TU 0830 TOT 0950 TD 1020 Bombed Alternate target, Maulterhouse; Slack, Wurmser + 9 others on flight (MR 662; plane # 86) JJY wm to Pyle

10 January TU 1340 TOT 1430 TD 1525 Armed Rec, bombed alternate Ammunition Dump; Wurmser, Haun & 9 others on flight (MR 664; plane # 78) JJY wm to Dewey

13 January TU 0800 TOT 0905 TD 0955 Bombed Railroad bridge Landau. Cut rail, but didn’t knock out bridge. (MR 666; plane # 83) JJY wm to Dewey

13 January TU 1315 TOT 1446 TD 1405 Bombed Railroad Bridge; Wumser, Slack + 7 others on flight (MR 668; plane # 77) JJY wm to Capt. Johnson

14 January TU 1050 TOT 1156 TD 1225 Bombed buildings at alternate target; Slack Wurmser + 9 others on flight (MR 671; plane # 72) JJY wm to Thompson –Slack was flight leader

14 January TU 1615 TOT 1650 TD 1740 Bombed railway bridge; Slack, Wurmser + 13 others on flight (MR 673; plane # 75) JJY wm to Thompson
Slack was flight leader

16 January TU 0815 TD 0950 Fighter Sweep to cut rail line. Clouds prevented attack; bombs jettisoned. (MR 675; plane # 85 JJY wm to Kandis

16 January TU 1605 TD 1720 Fighter Sweep Wissembourg – Karlsruhe – Stuttgart – Strassbourg (MR 678; plane # 77) JJY wm to Flight Leader Waspe

22 January TU 1350 TOT 1445 TD 1515 Bombed reported tanks in trees; Slack, Wurmser, Haun + 7 others on flight (MR 681; plane # 84) JJY wm to Dewey Lt. Slack was flight leader

4 February Assigned plane of his own, Plane # 83(P-47 D 28 RA Tail # 42-28590) - “Wee Three”. Jack considered whether he might change its name, but he didn’t.

13 February TU 1055 TOT 1150 TD 1205 Dive bombing Bad weather, but bombed town of Oberhausen (MR 703; plane # 83) JJY wm to Kandis

14 February TU 0805 TOT 0855 TD 1000 Bombed town and marshalling yard. Damaged one and destroyed another locomotive. (MR 707; plane # 83) JJY wm to Flight leader Thompson

14 February TU 1430 TOT 1540 TD 1655 Bombed supply depot, marshalling yards and destroyed locomotives in Haugenau (MR 709; plane # 95) JJY wm to McMeen

16 February TU 1725 TOT 1805 TD 1825 (MR 716; plane # 84) JJY wm to Flight leader Boyer – in plane # 83, Wee Three (JJY’s plane, formerly Boyer’s, who JJY wrote on 4th of February that Boyer had completed his missions – Possibly leading a flight in his former plane was sentimental or would look good on his personnel file)

[Editor: Wonder if Jack flew as Boyer’s wing man so he could keep a good look out on his plane.]

20 February Jack went to the front, a foxhole on the river. Fired two clips with an M-1 at German positions on the other side of the river. In a letter, Mother scolded him for doing that as it was dangerous.

28 February TU 1540 TOT 1636 TD 1730 Bombed Barracks; Wurmser + 6 others on flight (MR 764; plane # 83) JJY wm to Dewey

4 March Flew mission – two flights, eight planes. Three planes hit by flak, including JJY’s which had two holes in wing. (From Monthly Summary per Doug Patteson) JJY letter

14 March TU 1535 TOT 1600 TD 1720 Bombed Railroad, controller reported bombers being attacked over Karlsruhe; flew there, saw nothing (MR 782 plane # 80) JJY element leader to Capt. Barnes

15 March TU 0810 TOT 0830 TD 0939 Bombed Buildings, One exploded (MR 785; plane # 87) JJY wm to Haun

15 March TU 1005 TOT 1030 TD 1105 Bombed CP at Dudweiler and Railroad (MR 787); plane # 70) JJY element leader to Dewey

15 March TU 1445 TOT 1626 Bombed alternate target, ammo dump in forest (MR 791; plane # 72) – JJY element leader to Ottoman

15 March TU 1720 TOT 1705 TD 1900 Bombed Buildings in Oberbronn (MR 793; plane # 88) – JJY wm to Nuckolls

16 March TU 0830 TOT 0905 TD 1010 Bombed Town of Gunderhoffen Destroyed 15 buildings (MR 794; plane # 85) – JJY wm to Haun

16 March TU 1050 TOT 1130 TD 1235 About to attack locomotive near Mannheim, flight was attacked by 12 ME-109s. Bombs jettisoned. Jack Haun and Jack shot down ME-109 – Jack wrote of this in letter. (MR 797 plane #86) - JJY wm to Haun

16 March TU 1415 TOT 1520 TD 1625 Bombed Tanks bear Forstheim – This was probably the King Tiger that Jack wrote he knocked off the road. Reported to have stopped German attack (MR 801 plane # 83) JJY no wingman

16 March TU 1655 TOT 1725 TD 1845 Destroyed Railroad box cars (MR 803; plane # 83) JJY no wingman

16 March Jack wrote that he had completed 56 missions

17 March TU 1550 TOT 1645 TD 1720 Bombed Lauterbourg; strafed train and box cars (MR 806; plane # 83) JJY wm to Haun

18 March TU 0830 TOT 0915 TD 1030 Destroyed Barge; strafed and damaged RR cars (MR 808; plane #83) JJY element leader to Walby

18 March TU 1320 TOT 1400 TD 1510 Destroyed barge south of Mannheim (MR 812; plane # 83) JJY element leader to Kelly

18 March TU 1550 TOT 1655 TD 1735 Bombed buildings south of Heidelburg (MR 814; plane # 83) JJY wm to Goodwin

19 March TU 0820 TOT 0905-0910 TD 0955, dogfight with FW-190s, Jack’s plane (# 83) was seen spinning out of control; he was seen trying to get out. (MR 819) JJY wm to Haun. Hauptman Alfred Hammer, Gruppenkommandeur of IV./JG 53 based at Echterdingen (Pforzheim) flying ME-109s claimed victory over a P-47 at 0900. It was his 26th victory

MIA

1945 Wreckage of P-47 removed from Seehaus Forest
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JJB17463rdBombGroup
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Re: Against orders

Post JJB17463rdBombGroup »

Thank you Bill for taking the time to type that detailed abstract and sharing your brothers combat missions with all of us here.You and your family must have been so proud of your brother.By the way there is a P-47 movie playing this month over at Zenoswarbirdvideos.It's about the 362nd Fighter Group.This one I haven't seen before.You might like to see this too.You will need the Real Player media player to see these.
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/MATINEE.html
I've ordered a couple of DVD's from him in the past.
Son of a U.S.A.A.F. 15th Air Force 463rd bomb group 772nd squadron B17 pilot.
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Re: Against orders

Post jcblom »

I've discovered this discussion recently, and have followed it with great interest.
I have always had the greatest respect for all those young men who sacrificed their lives to liberate countries and people that they probably had never heard of beforehand.
The last year, I've made a whole series of repaints for the A2A P-47's, and if you like, I can try and recreate your brothers aircraft?

JanKees
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You'll find most of my paints here.

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wnyowell
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Re: Against orders

Post wnyowell »

Jan, that's very thoughtful of you. I will post some more information about the plane. The 316th Fighter squadron had a lightning bolt along the fuselage, but at the moment I don't remember its color. His plane was a bubble top, silver; I have a photograph which the grandson of one of the pilots sent me which shows part of it. I also have a photograph of a P-47 with the same number 83, taken some weeks later: it was a replacement for his plane.

The Group assigned two digit numbers to its planes. 1-10 were headquarters; 11-40 were 314th FS; 41-70 the 315th FS; and 71-99 the 316th. His plane, assigned to him in February was #83. I understand that a pilot had to demonstrate extra proficiency to have a plane assigned to him. Three of his squadron mates have described him as a "great pilot".

When I get the photos together I'll send them to you in a PM.

Thanks,
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jcblom
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Re: Against orders

Post jcblom »

Hi Bill,

I have that picture of #83 too, and a bit more info on the 316th.
Here's a pic of progress so far, I believe the lightning bolt is red, with a black shade (which I still have to add).
I have no idea how and where the name "wee three" was applied though, any ideas you might have would be appreciated.

But what do you think?

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JJB17463rdBombGroup
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Re: Against orders

Post JJB17463rdBombGroup »

Wow Jan she is beautiful what a great job and a very kind offer.
I'd like to see this repaint also for the upcoming WOP III Thunderbolt for FSX.
I wonder if Scott (a2asimulations) could include it before its release.I think that one of you should contact him and mention this (Well I already did).
I don't think that Bill can run Flight Simulator X with the specs of his PC though as it's too old but the WOP III Thunderbolt with accu-sim will be awesome and I'd like this repaint in it.
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Scott - A2A
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Re: Against orders

Post Scott - A2A »

What is the exact variant of this aircraft?
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JJB17463rdBombGroup
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Re: Against orders

Post JJB17463rdBombGroup »

Scott it says it's a Republic P-47D-28-RA Thunderbolt from that RAF honor roll website that I posted earlier.
http://www.geocities.com/raf_112_sqdn1/ ... _roll.html
Son of a U.S.A.A.F. 15th Air Force 463rd bomb group 772nd squadron B17 pilot.
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