Learning to fly the Connie

The "Queen of the Skies"
trisho0
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 643
Joined: 31 Mar 2018

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post trisho0 »

FlapMan, Please, can you launch FSX and see if you can load RJBE (ROBE Airport)? If you have a freeware or payware then never mind. It is supposed to load the default from stock scenery folder. I have the ADE, Airport Design Editor which can tell me if the sim has the scenery default. I found FSX and P3Dv4.5 don't have RJBE in their sim stock scenery default. I think Plan-G has a bug with FSX not showing the CL navaids from RJTT (Tokyo). So, Connie couldn't fly with FSX with the flight plan in question unless to fly VOR to VOR (not tested yet).
Pat

flapman
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 395
Joined: 10 Oct 2013

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post flapman »

Long post ahead,
trisho0 wrote:
26 Sep 2020, 20:34
DME counter was increasing right after passed CL radio beacon.
This is not a problem. It was probably increasing long before that (after you pass OSE my guess).
trisho0 wrote:
26 Sep 2020, 21:37
I said DME was counting in backward I mean not counting the remaining distance of 11.2nm left to continue. It was counting like 10, 9, 8, 7, etc.... I should said DME Counter I guess.
I would call that "DME Decreasing." "DME Increasing" I would consider counting like 11,12,13,14 etc...
DRMI LF1 was fine the Orange needle because I tuned ADF1 to 200 KHZ.
You have basic NDB skill now.
I know the airport was right at front of Connie but no ILS and G/S to follow.
You flight plan does not include an ILS, why do you expect it at RJTT when you did not plan for it?
But, no ILS to follow.
You didn't plan for ILS.
CL navaids is NDB without ILS (lol).
What is an ILS? What type of navaid is "CL"? Are they the same thing? You must think about what you are planning to use. What it does.
trisho0 wrote:
26 Sep 2020, 23:27
I don't use the Omnibearing ILS gauge flying between RJBE and OSE and between OSE and CL because I prioritize the DRMI LF1 Orange needle from CL navaid which I forward it accordingly.
Your plan calls for using DRMI LF1 to find CL only after you reach OSE. You must still reach OSE first.
From the Omnibearing ILS I see the Localizer is pointing to the side but I am not flying following the Localizer needle, should I?
Look again at the instrument you name "Omnibearing ILS." It has 3 names on it. It is not only ILS instrument. It works with VOR too. That is one of it's primary uses. You can.. and should.. use it in flight too.
I thought CL is an ILS navaid it didn't work as intended.
CL is an NDB, it drives the LF1 or LF2 needle of the DRMI. It cannot drive Localizer, does not react to Omnibearing gauge. You are learning which radio data goes where, and how.
Just flew again and experienced the same ILS problem.
What ILS? You've never planned for any ILS here.
trisho0 wrote:
27 Sep 2020, 19:05
I added the VOR HME 112.20 and the DME counter was just fine counting as I expected.
This did not help the flight. You got confused. Saw a VOR course and thought it was a Localizer. You never tuned an ILS, thus no Localizer. You did tune HME and course (radial) 337 and that's what you saw as the needle swung (you flew through the course). But you got the DME counter to "count the right way."
But this caused you a problem back at OSE. When you pass OSE you turn to 043 and tune HME 337. You loose helpful navigation signal. HME not helpful. OSE just a couple miles behind you was helpful. Set the new course 043 on Omnibearing and use course info from OSE to proceed direct to CL. HME cannot do this.
One engine was loosing MP power. What should I do?
Flight Engineer says, "These engines can't take this much longer, we must reduce power" which makes no sense because you were not at high power here. Bug? I suspect related to time acceleration.
I didn't climb and decided to land safely.
Not really safe, wrong side of the runway again. Do a Go Around.
Really you should be congratulated on this flight. You didn't get lost, and you actually set up for a good final approach. You exceeded flaps speed by a couple knots, but I care more about being in correct position than that stuff for now.
trisho0 wrote:
27 Sep 2020, 21:52
I was climbing.
You can turn and climb.
Using VOR2 the Green needle pointing to course 093.
No, it looks like 095.
Looking at the "Localizer (actually VOR(ange) COURSE)" needle I can see it deflected right to the edge of the circle. That's 2 degree error for VOR (093+2=095). DRMI appears to match. 2 degree error on Localizer will be near the either edge of the instrument!
The DME counter says 170nm, so we can determine how many miles off course you are. (170nm/60)x2°=5.6nm left of course.
You should turn.
Why should I turn right?
Because are you 5.6nm left of course. Learning to follow VOR course is an important part of flying Connie. You will fly many courses as you travel the world, not just ILS courses, not just DRMI bearings to stations. There is more to learn.
Should I turn right until the Localizer is centered?
Yes, and you should keep it centered all the way until you reach OSE VOR, when the TO from changes to FROM. From 29:00 to 51:00 that "localizer" needle should be in the center. Then you should keep it centered after you dial Ominbearing 043 to fly the course from OSE to CL. About 54:00 to 1:00:00. You will then look at both ILS gauge and DRMI LF1, and decide when to follow Cl and no longer OSE R-043.
If so, I will not be in course 093.
Yes you will. You set 093 in Omnibearing, that is the course you have chosen. That is the course from which the RANGE needle indicates error. The electronics calculate the error.

Lets talk about a big problem with this flight plan:
RJBE
OSE 109.85/[email protected]

Pat, what is the transmission distance of OSE VOR 109.85? Can it transmit a signal to an airplane 205nm away? We got away with this in Germany, but it will try and kill us here.
trisho0 wrote:
27 Sep 2020, 22:46
FlapMan, Please, can you launch FSX and see if you can load RJBE (ROBE Airport)?
I already know I don't have it. I looked it up and it opened in 2006, the same year FSX released.
I think Plan-G has a bug with FSX not showing the CL navaids from RJTT (Tokyo).
Probably not a bug with Plan-G. Plan-G detects no CL navaid for FSX, and that is true with FSX for you.
So, Connie couldn't fly with FSX with the flight plan in question unless to fly VOR to VOR (not tested yet).
Pat
Yes, you will need a reroute.

Congrats on the improvement, and the nice flight Pat!

trisho0
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 643
Joined: 31 Mar 2018

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post trisho0 »

trisho0 wrote:
27 Sep 2020, 21:52
I was climbing.
You can turn and climb.
Using VOR2 the Green needle pointing to course 093.
No, it looks like 095.
===>>> I will take care looking closer to gauges.

Looking at the "Localizer (actually VOR(ange) COURSE)" needle I can see it deflected right to the edge of the circle. That's 2 degree error for VOR (093+2=095). DRMI appears to match. 2 degree error on Localizer will be near the either edge of the instrument!
The DME counter says 170nm, so we can determine how many miles off course you are. (170nm/60)x2°=5.6nm left of course.
You should turn.
===>>> What is that "60" from that formula? Interesting calculations.
Why should I turn right?
Because are you 5.6nm left of course. Learning to follow VOR course is an important part of flying Connie. You will fly many courses as you travel the world, not just ILS courses, not just DRMI bearings to stations. There is more to learn.
===>>> I think I learned more today.
Should I turn right until the Localizer is centered?
Yes, and you should keep it centered all the way until you reach OSE VOR, when the TO from changes to FROM. From 29:00 to 51:00 that "localizer" needle should be in the center. Then you should keep it centered after you dial Ominbearing 043 to fly the course from OSE to CL. About 54:00 to 1:00:00. You will then look at both ILS gauge and DRMI LF1, and decide when to follow Cl and no longer OSE R-043.
If so, I will not be in course 093.
Yes you will. You set 093 in Omnibearing, that is the course you have chosen. That is the course from which the RANGE needle indicates error. The electronics calculate the error.
===>>> I will review this on the video later to learn this.

Lets talk about a big problem with this flight plan:
RJBE
OSE 109.85/[email protected]

Pat, what is the transmission distance of OSE VOR 109.85? Can it transmit a signal to an airplane 205nm away? We got away with this in Germany, but it will try and kill us here.
===>>> I realized that and I left it go because from Plan-G I checked the signals circled range for VOR and also for the NDB. The map view signals range satisfied my needs. So if the 205nm still weak then I can add more legs to fix the distances.
trisho0 wrote:
27 Sep 2020, 22:46
FlapMan, Please, can you launch FSX and see if you can load RJBE (ROBE Airport)?
I already know I don't have it. I looked it up and it opened in 2006, the same year FSX released.
I think Plan-G has a bug with FSX not showing the CL navaids from RJTT (Tokyo).
Probably not a bug with Plan-G. Plan-G detects no CL navaid for FSX, and that is true with FSX for you.
So, Connie couldn't fly with FSX with the flight plan in question unless to fly VOR to VOR (not tested yet).
Pat
Yes, you will need a reroute.

Congrats on the improvement, and the nice flight Pat!
===>>> Thanks again
[/quote]

I appreciate your very long report teaching me and thanks again for that.
My flight plan RJBE-RJTT was with CL radios beacon and according to how was looking out from Plan-G it is a NDB and for ende is an ILS I guess. I selected CL to plan an ILS landing. You found the CL navaids is not ILS then, let's disregard the FPL because it has not a valid ILS navaids. I should redo the plan.
Now confused, from Plan-G I can see no differences between CL navaids from RJTT and the NV navaids from EHAM. Both looks exactly icons so NV is an ILS and the CL is not?

Rest well tonight.

Pat

flapman
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 395
Joined: 10 Oct 2013

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post flapman »

trisho0 wrote:
28 Sep 2020, 00:28
Now confused, from Plan-G I can see no differences between CL navaids from RJTT and the NV navaids from EHAM. Both looks exactly icons so NV is an ILS and the CL is not?
There is another radio you tune in EHAM. Do you remember it?

trisho0
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 643
Joined: 31 Mar 2018

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post trisho0 »

flapman wrote:
28 Sep 2020, 00:41
trisho0 wrote:
28 Sep 2020, 00:28
Now confused, from Plan-G I can see no differences between CL navaids from RJTT and the NV navaids from EHAM. Both looks exactly icons so NV is an ILS and the CL is not?
There is another radio you tune in EHAM. Do you remember it?
I tuned NDB navaids in RJTT:
CL 200 KHz
RJTT HME 112.20/337

I tuned NDB navaids in EHAM:
NV 332 KHz
EHAM ILS 36C - 111.95/004

Both were NDB so both should be used as ILS correct? If not, I don't understand.
Pat

flapman
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 395
Joined: 10 Oct 2013

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post flapman »

trisho0 wrote:
28 Sep 2020, 08:40
I tuned NDB navaids in RJTT:
CL 200 KHz
RJTT HME 112.20/337

I tuned NDB navaids in EHAM:
NV 332 KHz
EHAM ILS 36C - 111.95/004

Both were NDB so both should be used as ILS correct? If not, I don't understand.
Pat
You don't understand. They are separate systems.
NDB's are the green circles in Plan-G.
ILS's are the green arrows.
VOR/VORDME/VORTAC/TACAN are the blue boxes surrounded by the compass. They should all have different symbols, but it appears this isn't a feature of Plan-G

Each station has a standard symbol which is "mostly" common across all simulators, and planning software.

Image

Tomas Linnet
Senior Master Sergeant
Posts: 1965
Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Location: Oksboel, Denmark

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post Tomas Linnet »

Plan-G shows the correct symbols, on my system any way. If the “information” window is open, Plan-G will show details on nav aids, also note the NDB’s use a different frequency range than both VOR and ILS. If more than one nav aid is in the same location, Plan-G will show details on all of them, they will show up in the window with their colours.
Kind Regards
Tomas

Accu-Sim aircraft in my hangar:
C172, C182, P51 Civ, P51 Mil, B17, Spitfire, P47, B377 COTS,
J3 Cub, T6, Connie, P-40, V35B
A2A Accu-Sim Avro Lancaster Loading:............0.000001% complete, please wait.

trisho0
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 643
Joined: 31 Mar 2018

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post trisho0 »

flapman wrote:
28 Sep 2020, 11:24
trisho0 wrote:
28 Sep 2020, 08:40
I tuned NDB navaids in RJTT:
CL 200 KHz
RJTT HME 112.20/337

I tuned NDB navaids in EHAM:
NV 332 KHz
EHAM ILS 36C - 111.95/004

Both were NDB so both should be used as ILS correct? If not, I don't understand.
Pat
You don't understand. They are separate systems.
NDB's are the green circles in Plan-G.
ILS's are the green arrows.
VOR/VORDME/VORTAC/TACAN are the blue boxes surrounded by the compass. They should all have different symbols, but it appears this isn't a feature of Plan-G

Each station has a standard symbol which is "mostly" common across all simulators, and planning software.
OK, how can we see the differences between NV and CL radios beacon if both are green circled from Plan-G...... here to watch on it ....
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1R7efFh ... sp=sharing
Pat

flapman
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 395
Joined: 10 Oct 2013

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post flapman »

trisho0 wrote:
28 Sep 2020, 13:33
OK, how can we see the differences between NV and CL radios beacon if both are green circled from Plan-G...... here to watch on it ....
What is the large green symbol between NV and EHAM?
What is the large green symbol between CL and RJTT?

trisho0
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 643
Joined: 31 Mar 2018

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post trisho0 »

flapman wrote:
28 Sep 2020, 14:04
trisho0 wrote:
28 Sep 2020, 13:33
OK, how can we see the differences between NV and CL radios beacon if both are green circled from Plan-G...... here to watch on it ....
What is the large green symbol between NV and EHAM?
What is the large green symbol between CL and RJTT?
It is an Arrow big one pointing to the runway. I will take a look at them again I might find the answer, hold on ....(Very interesting).
Pat

EDIT:
I found NV (EHAM) is located at front of only one large arrow pointing to the runway. The CL is pointing to the runway 34R but also I can see 2 arrows instead of one. Anyway the CL navaids I see is pointing to only one runway and maybe partially to the other runway 34L. Is this something telling me which NDB can be used as ILS?

Pat

flapman
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 395
Joined: 10 Oct 2013

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post flapman »

trisho0 wrote:
28 Sep 2020, 14:37
Is this something telling me which NDB can be used as ILS?
There are 0 NDB which can be used for ILS Pat. NDB=/=ILS. They are not the same. The green arrow is the ILS.

trisho0
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 643
Joined: 31 Mar 2018

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post trisho0 »

flapman wrote:
28 Sep 2020, 15:37
trisho0 wrote:
28 Sep 2020, 14:37
Is this something telling me which NDB can be used as ILS?
There are 0 NDB which can be used for ILS Pat. NDB=/=ILS. They are not the same. The green arrow is the ILS.
OK, if NDB is not ILS why a Captain will use a navaids that never will give DME? VOR gives me DME so I know how far I am from the destination airport. NDB doesn't give DME. This is what I learned so far (lol). But yes, now I think since the NDB usually is located at front of the ILS then I am flying ILS....... I guess. If so, then I was wrong before. I thought flying ILS, Connie can be straight to runway for landing like Jets using FMC.
Pat

User avatar
Nick - A2A
A2A Captain
Posts: 11691
Joined: 06 Jun 2014
Location: UK

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post Nick - A2A »

Hello Pat,

I haven't been following this thread very closely, but can I recommend the following website:

http://www.navfltsm.addr.com/

It's intended to teach the basics of air navigation using ground-based navaids to flight simmers. Although the site is a few years old now, and isn't really designed for modern screen resolutions, I think you may find it useful if you haven't already seen it.

Thanks,
Nick
A2A Simulations Inc.

flapman
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 395
Joined: 10 Oct 2013

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post flapman »

trisho0 wrote:
28 Sep 2020, 16:21
OK, if NDB is not ILS why a Captain will use a navaids that never will give DME?
Captain want's to find ILS beams, not mountains at night or in fog. DME reads the same at both places.

Distance RJTT to Mihara VHF Omni Range (OSE 109.85) = 50nm. DME reads 50nm and it is time to turn.
Distance RJTT to top of Mount Fuji = 53nm. DME reads 53nm and you are dead.

Legal and safe departure from Kobe has DME counter go up. It must go up. You will learn this.
VOR gives me DME so I know how far I am from the destination airport.
You will miss ILS. That's why Trev gave you and NV at EHAM. VOR and DME will be no help to you. Remember how you got lost EDFE to EHAM? You had DME entire time.. didn't help. You got lost. Simple NV NDB has no DME yet you find 36R ILS every day. Which is better for Connie captain?
NDB doesn't give DME.
We are over the top of CL NDB in Japan and you ask me the distance to RJTT. I can tell you this exactly. Nobody needs a rotating DME counter to know the answer.
But yes, now I think since the NDB usually is located at front of the ILS then I am flying ILS....... I guess.
What is the name of the NDB in front of RJBE ILS 09? There is none. Many have no NDB. Many ILS have no DME either. Neither is required. Following a VOR course is required.

trisho0
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 643
Joined: 31 Mar 2018

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post trisho0 »

Nick - A2A wrote:
28 Sep 2020, 16:55
Hello Pat,

I haven't been following this thread very closely, but can I recommend the following website:

http://www.navfltsm.addr.com/

It's intended to teach the basics of air navigation using ground-based navaids to flight simmers. Although the site is a few years old now, and isn't really designed for modern screen resolutions, I think you may find it useful if you haven't already seen it.

Thanks,
Nick
Thanks to participate your help on this thread. From that link I visited before and just found something I didn't see until now.

The Glide Slope
The Glide Slope is the signal that provides vertical guidance to the aircraft during the ILS approach. The standard glide-slope path is 3° downhill to the approach-end of the runway. Follow it faithfully and your altitude will be precisely correct when you reach the touchdown zone of the runway.

Think of the glide slope as a localizer laying on its side, squirting a signal 3° up into the air, and you'll have it just about right.

Tracking the glide slope is identical to tracking a localizer. If the glide-slope needle swings away from center—up or down—maneuver the aircraft towards the needle by adjusting the engine's power. Don't point the aircraft's nose up or down.

Nick, my weakside always was don't understanding clearly on how the GlideSlope works. Regarding on ILS I think I understand better on how it works.
Patricio

new reply

Return to “Lockheed Model 049 Constellation”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests