Learning to fly the Connie

The "Queen of the Skies"
flapman
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 405
Joined: 10 Oct 2013

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post flapman »

Thank you for flight reports Pat.

I have watched first attempt, but would like to watch 2nd before I comment. I also am going to bed. Can probably give detailed response late tomorrow night.

trisho0
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 655
Joined: 31 Mar 2018

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post trisho0 »

flapman wrote:
22 Jan 2021, 00:16
Thank you for flight reports Pat.

I have watched first attempt, but would like to watch 2nd before I comment. I also am going to bed. Can probably give detailed response late tomorrow night.
Thanks so much FlapMan for your efforts on teaching me. I appreciate so much!
Just flew another LTBA-LTBA Circle and really is a challenge. I thought it was more easy than the plan LTBQ-LTBA still a Circle after BKZ beacons but is different. I think because your instructions was provided well done. I will give another try with the LTBA-LTBA short flight but again, a BIG challenge. After tried a couple of times if not more I did again and stopping often Plan-G to see the route where I am going. You will laugh loud. I have the video if you want but I have to tell you, it is pain for your mind (lol).
OK, going bed and see later. Rest well relaxed.
Patricio

flapman
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 405
Joined: 10 Oct 2013

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post flapman »

I'm glad I waited to comment until after watching the 2nd attempt. Pat the 2nd attempt was much much better than the 1st, and probably one of the best approaches you have ever flown!

Your biggest issue still relates to basic aircraft control. You do not change MP enough during the approach. Connie flies level, descends, level, descends, level, descends, levels, descends. The required power for this approach changes many times, but you MP for the most part stays the same. Remember Rod's Lessons, with the automobile going up and down hills.
When you extend flaps and gear you increase air drag for Connie, speed or altitude decreases as a result. More thrust from engines is required. You have many problems maintaining altitude, and I think lack of power is a cause.

I can give more detailed analysis later. Good job.

trisho0
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 655
Joined: 31 Mar 2018

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post trisho0 »

flapman wrote:
22 Jan 2021, 12:37
I'm glad I waited to comment until after watching the 2nd attempt. Pat the 2nd attempt was much much better than the 1st, and probably one of the best approaches you have ever flown!
===> 1st flight I got applauses from passengers. From 2nd I got nothing but landing more centered. None were good for me but learning.

Your biggest issue still relates to basic aircraft control. You do not change MP enough during the approach. Connie flies level, descends, level, descends, level, descends, levels, descends. The required power for this approach changes many times, but you MP for the most part stays the same. Remember Rod's Lessons, with the automobile going up and down hills.
===> Connie flying with altitudes up/down often, because MP varies continuously and I have to adjust it from FE. Also, when I do turns the altitude changes even more and I control that via Sperry AP. In approach the level varies even more because I am trimming and Sperry Off. Doing turns accordingly varies the altitude too.

When you extend flaps and gear you increase air drag for Connie, speed or altitude decreases as a result. More thrust from engines is required. You have many problems maintaining altitude, and I think lack of power is a cause.
===> More trust from engines...... what is that?

I can give more detailed analysis later. Good job.
===> Sorry FlapMan, I don't think I did a good landing at all so, you cannot qualify this as a good job.
If you can make video about controlling MP or trust with the same flight plan or whatever you decide I can learn on how to maintain altitude. You are right, Connie doesn't stay at the same level on cruise. Sometimes, I am lucky to see when Connie stays on level as longer if I don't change the course or starting with approach.
I will redo the flight LTBQ-LTBA to work on altitude as well.
Pat

flapman
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 405
Joined: 10 Oct 2013

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post flapman »

Okay, long post ahead. Have coffee or tea ready...
rwy 35L ( I don't have 36L)
Runway names change over years, even though the piece of concrete may be the same. It has to do with location of magnetic north pole. In real world the new number is painted on, the procedures, planning software, and FMC data are all updated about the same time. Not so in flight simulators, it is not a large problem once you adjust. The airport likely did not move (sometimes it will).
I think because your instructions was provided well done.
Thank you.
After tried a couple of times if not more I did again and stopping often Plan-G to see the route where I am going. You will laugh loud.
A problem is that I cannot go into great detail on the turn at BKZ without doubling the post. The goal is you that you need to leave BKZ flying the correct direction, no matter the direction you arrive at BKZ. The procedure exists to keep you in safe airspace while you adjust both heading and altitude to safely start approach.
None were good for me but learning.
Yes, learning and safe flight. Passengers will be happy with gentle landing but not happy by sudden stop as Connie strikes drainage ditch.

Image
ASN Aircraft accident Lockheed L-049 Constellation NC86510 Washington-National Airport, DC (DCA)
PROBABLE CAUSE: "Poor judgement of the flight crew in attempting to land from a position which did not afford sufficient time to accomplish a satisfactory approach. A contributing factor was the poor landing technique of the pilot in failing to reduce the airspeed sufficiently for a safe landing. A further contributing factor was the lack of knowledge on the part of the crew concerning the poor braking action of rubber tires on a wet runway."
because MP varies continuously and I have to adjust it from FE.
No. MP gauges are on pilot panel as well as FE panel. Throttles control MP, and throttles are between pilots, both can move them. You need to move them on approach as required for gear, flaps, airspeed, altitude, climb, descent, level flight.
More trust from engines...... what is that?
Language issue, no worries. The word is "thrust" T-H-R-U-S-T.

Image

Okay, time to review video: "FSX Connie LTBQ-LTBA 2nd.mp4"

I ignore everything until BKZ.
@25:08. You reach BKZ. Nice job locating it. Look at your video at this time. I want you to see TO-FROM pointer on Omnibearing. I want you to see it change from TO (Going To) to FROM (Going away From) BKZ. I assume you do not look at this pointer much, so I want you to see it work. It shows without doubt you have passed over BKZ. It is important part of VOR instruments, and more useful when there is no DME Counter, and no DRMI installed in airplane.
You have correctly arrived at BKZ no lower than 5,000ft.
As soon as you pass BKZ and begin turn to 052 you have permission to 4,000ft. No problem with this descent, just to remind you. Descend when you are ready.
Now we must talk about radio setup. You flightplan ends at BKZ and Omnibearing is 296. My flightplan begins at BKZ and VOR2 Omnibearing is 232. Set it now. BKZ is an important part of this approach. It defines your flightplan from LTBQ-BKZ, it defines Hold at BKZ, and it defines missed approach path away from LTBA. I uses 3 different settings of Omnibearing to accomplish this: 296, 232, 234. You did not know this and do not set them.
@27:29. Turn is finished, timed leg begins near clock time 07:43:37
@28:43. You extend first flaps. My procedure calls for this to happen after leaving BKZ on approach, but it is suggestion. The choice is within limits. Airspeed is 162 knots when this happens. Altitude is 5,000ft. You make no power(=MP=thrust) change. Watch how airspeed results!
@29:30. You increase RPM and MP and airspeed is 125 knots. With no change other than lift and drag from extending flaps once, airspeed loss 37 knots in 47 seconds! Good job adjusting throttles.
@29:56. We turn back to BKZ. Timed leg about 2m30s. Okay, whatever. Watch course needle when you repeat this... after having correctly set Omnibearing 232.
@33:40. We are on heading 232 but BKZ pointer indicates about 221. The goal is to arrive back at BKZ. In a perfect world that would happen on heading 232. But life is not perfect. You are pilot.
@35:37. TO-FROM flag changes. But it is not correct, we have not arrived yet. Omnibearing still set for LTBQ-BKZ, not Holding BKZ. It would be correct for that part of flight.
@36:16. We reach BKZ. Distance probably less than 1nm I call it good. You forget to set Omnibearing 234 before switch VOR1(LOC). If you have to miss approach "Connie Lost in Space." That error is made right here, right now, but may not be seen for the next 5+ minutes.
It is time to ask the 2 questions at BKZ:
are there less than 90 degrees of turn to 233? YES
Am I at 4,000? YES
Approach is authorized. :D
There were rules which were in force to this time:
you cannot go below 4,000ft until you start the approach, and you cannot go below 5,000ft if you approached BKZ the first time from the south-east.
You followed these rules well.

@36:52. Gear down just at 4,000ft. It is fine, within limits. Connie is now literally dragging wheels through the air. Watch how the drag makes life difficult later lol.
@39:03. Very nice job finding Localizer beam.
@39:33. We arrive 1,425ft at airspeed 134 knots, gear down, flaps 1st, 28"MP 2,300 RPM. You have not moved the throttles since 5,000ft around BKZ. DME Counter reads 9.2nm.
There is a rule here:
Until distance is less than 3.9 you are not allowed to descend below 1,425ft.
You are going to soon violate this rule.
@40:43. In 70 seconds of level fight without correcting throttles we have lost 21 knots and are now too slow. You do not have enough thrust from the propellers to maintain both airspeed and altitude. In fact, you cannot maintain either. DME Counter reads 4.9nm but you have lost control of Connie. Rule is broken and you (like many times) "fall out of the bottom" of the approach. I can see you struggle to maintain control. Localizer is great though!!!
@42:11. Blue Light comes on. DME Reads 3.9. "Outer Marker" radio transmission audio is heard. You are at 1,200ft. You were supposed to be at 1,425ft. You decided to trade altitude for airspeed, violated rules of the approach. All because engines are at the same settings here as at 5,000ft.
The skill to avoid this failure will be needed for finding G/S. It is one of many reasons you do not find G/S.

I even told you in notes: "Remember to fly level after descent you will need to add power."

It is time for another check of progress. Are you at 1425ft? NO
Are you on LOC? YES
Is airspeed less than 130 knots? YES
If the answer to any of these is NO you are not allowed to continue.
You decide to continue. If you follow my procedure you will be lost in space, because you did not set VOR2 Omnibearing 234 after BKZ.

Even with these errors... this approach looks much better than your other attempts.
Compare to your first attempt following G/S 3.2. In that video, in this same exact location (@53:56) your altitude is only 550ft! You see why I say this approach was much better? You will never find G/S at 550ft 3.9nm from runway. It is not there... Back to the current video.

All the time you are doing a good job with Localizer. You now have a new rule.. you will break it too:
You are not allowed to fly below 710 ft until 2 things are both true:
1.) You are lined up with the runway (mostly)
2.) You see at least 2 white lights of the PAPI. If you see all red, you cannot descend! Wait.
@43:08. You descend below 710ft with 1 white, 3 red lights. you are supposed to have 2 white. It is a minor deviation, but it will make learning Connie harder, and learning ILS harder.
@43:43. 2 white, 2 red. On path. 400ft.
@43:49. 3 white, 1 red. You are now high on path. This will be a long landing, but not as dangerously long as first try with G/S. The rules of this approach make you work to contain errors. You still make errors, but they are measured.
@44:13. You land. We are outside the allowed landing space, and it is hard for the passengers. But you leave more than 1/2 of the runway pavement to stop the aircraft.

From 29:30-44:00 the throttles did not move at all. Through 4,700ft of altitude loss, gear and flap extension, and 1 attempt at level flight.

trisho0
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 655
Joined: 31 Mar 2018

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post trisho0 »

flapman wrote:
23 Jan 2021, 13:55

Okay, time to review video: "FSX Connie LTBQ-LTBA 2nd.mp4"

I ignore everything until BKZ.
@25:08. You reach BKZ. Nice job locating it. Look at your video at this time. I want you to see TO-FROM pointer on Omnibearing. I want you to see it change from TO (Going To) to FROM (Going away From) BKZ. I assume you do not look at this pointer much, so I want you to see it work.
===> I understand the TO-FROM flag function but yes I pay more attention on the instruments instead.

It shows without doubt you have passed over BKZ. It is important part of VOR instruments, and more useful when there is no DME Counter, and no DRMI installed in airplane.
===> I learned this, interesting.

You have correctly arrived at BKZ no lower than 5,000ft.
As soon as you pass BKZ and begin turn to 052 you have permission to 4,000ft. No problem with this descent, just to remind you. Descend when you are ready.
Now we must talk about radio setup. You flightplan ends at BKZ and Omnibearing is 296. My flightplan begins at BKZ and VOR2 Omnibearing is 232. Set it now. BKZ is an important part of this approach. It defines your flightplan from LTBQ-BKZ, it defines Hold at BKZ, and it defines missed approach path away from LTBA. I uses 3 different settings of Omnibearing to accomplish this: 296, 232, 234. You did not know this and do not set them.
===> I think the Omnibearing set at 296 is good from LTBQ until BKZ. Passing over BKZ normally I change VOR2 to VOR1 which it has Omnibearing set at 233 and turning to the left straight to the airport. Following your instructions I only did a Right turn following course 052 and after the circle became completed and passing over BKZ again is when I change VOR2 to VOR1 and the course becomes 233. I followed that direction following LOC. I think I need to learn more about Omnibearings 232 and 234. Next flight attempt will be course 232 while the Omnibearing is set at 234. Let's forget the 233 which came from Plan-G.

@27:29. Turn is finished, timed leg begins near clock time 07:43:37
@28:43. You extend first flaps. My procedure calls for this to happen after leaving BKZ on approach, but it is suggestion. The choice is within limits. Airspeed is 162 knots when this happens. Altitude is 5,000ft. You make no power(=MP=thrust) change. Watch how airspeed results!
===> I will correct this. My first flaps down will be after passed BKZ flying to the airport. It was my mistake before.

@29:30. You increase RPM and MP and airspeed is 125 knots. With no change other than lift and drag from extending flaps once, airspeed loss 37 knots in 47 seconds! Good job adjusting throttles.
===> I think this was accidentally (lol).

@29:56. We turn back to BKZ. Timed leg about 2m30s. Okay, whatever. Watch course needle when you repeat this... after having correctly set Omnibearing 232.
===> Omnibearing at 232 will be, I understand.

@33:40. We are on heading 232 but BKZ pointer indicates about 221. The goal is to arrive back at BKZ. In a perfect world that would happen on heading 232. But life is not perfect. You are pilot.
===> I understand.

@35:37. TO-FROM flag changes. But it is not correct, we have not arrived yet. Omnibearing still set for LTBQ-BKZ, not Holding BKZ. It would be correct for that part of flight.
===> TO-FROM changed because Omnibearing was 296 instead of 234 right?

@36:16. We reach BKZ. Distance probably less than 1nm I call it good. You forget to set Omnibearing 234 before switch VOR1(LOC). If you have to miss approach "Connie Lost in Space." That error is made right here, right now, but may not be seen for the next 5+ minutes.
===> Confused here. Before switching VOR2 to VOR1 you want me to change Omnibearing VOR2 to 234. So, what is doing the setting 234 in an inactive VOR2 if we activated the VOR1 which has the setting 234 already?

It is time to ask the 2 questions at BKZ:
are there less than 90 degrees of turn to 233? YES
Am I at 4,000? YES
Approach is authorized. :D
There were rules which were in force to this time:
you cannot go below 4,000ft until you start the approach, and you cannot go below 5,000ft if you approached BKZ the first time from the south-east.
You followed these rules well.
===> Thanks.

@36:52. Gear down just at 4,000ft. It is fine, within limits. Connie is now literally dragging wheels through the air. Watch how the drag makes life difficult later lol.
@39:03. Very nice job finding Localizer beam.
@39:33. We arrive 1,425ft at airspeed 134 knots, gear down, flaps 1st, 28"MP 2,300 RPM. You have not moved the throttles since 5,000ft around BKZ. DME Counter reads 9.2nm.
===> Should I moved throttles up even I have 28"MP?

There is a rule here:
Until distance is less than 3.9 you are not allowed to descend below 1,425ft.
You are going to soon violate this rule.
===> I will be less distracted.

@40:43. In 70 seconds of level fight without correcting throttles we have lost 21 knots and are now too slow. You do not have enough thrust from the propellers to maintain both airspeed and altitude. In fact, you cannot maintain either. DME Counter reads 4.9nm but you have lost control of Connie. Rule is broken and you (like many times) "fall out of the bottom" of the approach. I can see you struggle to maintain control. Localizer is great though!!!
===> OK I will be more agressive with Connie to learn how to maintain airspeed and altitude (lol). Learned is all related with Throttles.

@42:11. Blue Light comes on. DME Reads 3.9. "Outer Marker" radio transmission audio is heard. You are at 1,200ft. You were supposed to be at 1,425ft. You decided to trade altitude for airspeed, violated rules of the approach. All because engines are at the same settings here as at 5,000ft.
The skill to avoid this failure will be needed for finding G/S. It is one of many reasons you do not find G/S.
===> I will master this frame.

I even told you in notes: "Remember to fly level after descent you will need to add power."

It is time for another check of progress. Are you at 1425ft? NO
Are you on LOC? YES
Is airspeed less than 130 knots? YES
If the answer to any of these is NO you are not allowed to continue.
You decide to continue. If you follow my procedure you will be lost in space, because you did not set VOR2 Omnibearing 234 after BKZ.
===> Do you mean I had to set VOR2 at 234 before switching to VOR1, after BKZ to leave Connie ready to do GA if needed? I think so, that it is. If so, I understood.

Even with these errors... this approach looks much better than your other attempts.
Compare to your first attempt following G/S 3.2. In that video, in this same exact location (@53:56) your altitude is only 550ft! You see why I say this approach was much better? You will never find G/S at 550ft 3.9nm from runway. It is not there... Back to the current video.
===> Clearly I understood why I don't see glideslope. So, I have to learn finding the approach requirements for landing from the Chart. Many thanks.

All the time you are doing a good job with Localizer. You now have a new rule.. you will break it too:
You are not allowed to fly below 710 ft until 2 things are both true:
1.) You are lined up with the runway (mostly)
2.) You see at least 2 white lights of the PAPI. If you see all red, you cannot descend! Wait.
===> Wait or going up back to 710 ft altitude?

@43:08. You descend below 710ft with 1 white, 3 red lights. you are supposed to have 2 white. It is a minor deviation, but it will make learning Connie harder, and learning ILS harder.
@43:43. 2 white, 2 red. On path. 400ft.
@43:49. 3 white, 1 red. You are now high on path. This will be a long landing, but not as dangerously long as first try with G/S. The rules of this approach make you work to contain errors. You still make errors, but they are measured.
@44:13. You land. We are outside the allowed landing space, and it is hard for the passengers. But you leave more than 1/2 of the runway pavement to stop the aircraft.
===> I will master this too.

From 29:30-44:00 the throttles did not move at all. Through 4,700ft of altitude loss, gear and flap extension, and 1 attempt at level flight.
===> Because trying to maintain airspeed. I know it was my mistake.
I had 2 days not be able to login with A2A Forum. I received a message: You exceeded the maximum allowed number of login attempts. In addition to your username and password you now also have to solve the CAPTCHA below.
Did you have login issues the last 2 days?
I think it was a bug.
Pat

flapman
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 405
Joined: 10 Oct 2013

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post flapman »

trisho0 wrote:
24 Jan 2021, 11:50
Did you have login issues the last 2 days?
No. But my web browser saves my login for A2A so maybe that is why I didn't have a problem. Seems you understand my analysis very well, yes your understanding of Omnibearing use is correct. Just remember that the changes are made to VOR2, VOR1 stays at 233 the whole flight.
I think you build more skills every time you fly and practice.

trisho0
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 655
Joined: 31 Mar 2018

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post trisho0 »

flapman wrote:
24 Jan 2021, 20:45
trisho0 wrote:
24 Jan 2021, 11:50
Did you have login issues the last 2 days?
No. But my web browser saves my login for A2A so maybe that is why I didn't have a problem. Seems you understand my analysis very well, yes your understanding of Omnibearing use is correct. Just remember that the changes are made to VOR2, VOR1 stays at 233 the whole flight.
I think you build more skills every time you fly and practice.
Sorry my late response. Homework demanding more time (lol). Soon, I am going to repeat the challenge soon.
Patricio

trisho0
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 655
Joined: 31 Mar 2018

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post trisho0 »

FlapMan, I flew repeating your well programmed flight plan and still a challenge, I can't get it yet. I want to do a nice flight. I will report as soon as I get it. Too much COVID19 in the Cabin (lol).
Rest well.
Patricio

trisho0
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 655
Joined: 31 Mar 2018

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post trisho0 »

I flew just only a very few times probably 4 or 5 the LTBA challenge and still not getting just only because before arming the First Flaps down I am still with high airspeed that I need to push airspeed down. I will need to bring the Vertical Speed up for a while until I get the airspeed low ready to apply the first flaps down. But this demand me to do that before reaching BKZ beacons.
So, I will have to find a way to reduce the airspeed before applying the first flaps down.
I can do this flight and even landed as expected but not following strictly to the instructed plan.
I will keep practicing ....
Patricio

flapman
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 405
Joined: 10 Oct 2013

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post flapman »

Hi Pat,
Hope you are well. Glad you are enjoying the challenge of this approach.
trisho0 wrote:
18 Feb 2021, 23:06
I flew just only a very few times probably 4 or 5 the LTBA challenge and still not getting just only because before arming the First Flaps down I am still with high airspeed that I need to push airspeed down.
My approach briefing predicts this challenge. I write, "When you are below 150 knots extend first flaps "First Notch Down". This may take some time because of the descent,"

When you depart BKZ to begin the approach, what is the airspeed? I have seen you sometimes forget to reduce power in descent, and the airspeed has increased. Other causes of high airspeed are starting the descent too late, or descending at too high vertical speed.
I will need to bring the Vertical Speed up for a while until I get the airspeed low ready to apply the first flaps down. But this demand me to do that before reaching BKZ beacons.
Do it. My plan expects you to leave BKZ for approach either at an airspeed which allows for immediate 1st flaps, or within limits and easy to reach the 150 knots target. If you are very very fast your plan is good. Reduce vertical speed to reduce airspeed. You may arrive for holding at BKZ too high as a result. That is a good error to make. The Connie handling notes I use instruct holding is performed with flaps up. Reduce airspeed before reaching BKZ to hold. Or, if you arrive fast to BKZ, use the holding to reduce airspeed. But you do not need to extend flaps as soon as the airspeed is reached. You can reduce the airspeed, then wait until you depart BKZ hold (begin approach) to extend them.
So, I will have to find a way to reduce the airspeed before applying the first flaps down.
This is a basic flying skill you practice.
I can do this flight and even landed as expected but not following strictly to the instructed plan.
There are certain rules that must be followed, other rules that only exist to make flying Connie easier. Extending flaps after BKZ approach and at 150 knots is a "easy flying" type of rule. Getting off localizer, going below 1,425ft before 3.9nm, or extending 1st flaps faster than 174knots are safety rules, you should not violate them.
I will keep practicing ....
Patricio
You may also try visual flight in Connie. It is perhaps not the best use of this type of airplane, but it is a safe and legal way to fly. You need no navigation instruments to find your way. No NDB, no VOR, no ILS, no DME. You look out the window and find your way. Can give you a break from the challenge of LTBA.

My suggested route EDFE-LFSB. On takeoff from EDFE fly heading 240. You will see the Rhine river ahead flowing from the south. Turn left, and follow the river south. Look on Plan-G to learn the shape of the LFSB airport. To learn where the city is in relation to the airport, and the turn the river makes at the city. The goal is to look outside and recognize these landmarks, to know you are landing at the correct city, and the correct airport. This flight has no navaid beacons. You look out the window. Make sure you avoid cloud so you can see the river. You can follow on skyvector, or Plan-G, but I suggest removing the aircraft position from Plan-G (disconnect it). You do not want to have a GPS position. The idea is to use the river. There will be numerous modern airspace violations on this flight, but we can ignore them because this is a special practice flight for you.

trisho0
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 655
Joined: 31 Mar 2018

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post trisho0 »

For the suggested route EDFE-LFSB as a break time is a good idea but not performed yet. I had too many duties to attend so not practicing flight plans been done. Tonight, I had to figure where I left pending with the FlapMan's plan and reassumed the saved flight from near BKZ to keep practicing the LTBA Approach. Here it goes another one for analysis.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OHGKRN ... sp=sharing
Patricio

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