Learning to fly the Connie

The "Queen of the Skies"
flapman
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 381
Joined: 10 Oct 2013

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post flapman »

trisho0 wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 14:48
So, G/S has nothing to do with navaids, correct?
Pat
From http://navfltsm.addr.com/ils.htm
The ILS Components

When you fly the ILS, you're really following two signals: a localizer for lateral guidance (VHF); and a glide slope for vertical guidance (UHF). When you tune your Nav. receiver to a localizer frequency a second receiver, the glide-slope receiver, is automatically tuned to its proper frequency. The pairing is automatic.
It will probably confuse you more, but technically, the Glide Slope is considered a navaid too. It is separate from VOR, but for your perspective as a pilot, it uses the same radio, and displays using the same cockpit instrument as ILS. The only time the glideslope needle is deflected (no "off" flag) is when the airplane is receiving a signal from the glideslope transmitter on the ground.

When he flips the switch to VOR2, and I see the glideslope needle deflect (and based on the direction of deflection of the Localizer/Range needle), I assume he has tuned the ILS frequency into NAV2. He doesn't mention that, and because the video is cut we can't see him doing it, but it's obvious from the indications.

trisho0
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 611
Joined: 31 Mar 2018

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post trisho0 »

flapman wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 16:24
trisho0 wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 14:48
So, G/S has nothing to do with navaids, correct?
Pat
From http://navfltsm.addr.com/ils.htm
The ILS Components

When you fly the ILS, you're really following two signals: a localizer for lateral guidance (VHF); and a glide slope for vertical guidance (UHF). When you tune your Nav. receiver to a localizer frequency a second receiver, the glide-slope receiver, is automatically tuned to its proper frequency. The pairing is automatic.
It will probably confuse you more, but technically, the Glide Slope is considered a navaid too. It is separate from VOR, but for your perspective as a pilot, it uses the same radio, and displays using the same cockpit instrument as ILS. The only time the glideslope needle is deflected (no "off" flag) is when the airplane is receiving a signal from the glideslope transmitter on the ground.

When he flips the switch to VOR2, and I see the glideslope needle deflect (and based on the direction of deflection of the Localizer/Range needle), I assume he has tuned the ILS frequency into NAV2. He doesn't mention that, and because the video is cut we can't see him doing it, but it's obvious from the indications.
I understand and I don't (lol). OK, if the G/S technically is considered a navaids then the Localizer too because both are detected from the Connie radios. ILS sends signals to Localizer from the end of the runway, right? If so, where is G/S signals coming from?
I think this part of Classroom is more technical than I thought. Clearly Connie is confusing my mind (lol).
On the another hand, remember the flight plan UGKO-UGTB from Georgia mountains? I want to show you a modified plan later.
Pat

trisho0
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 611
Joined: 31 Mar 2018

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post trisho0 »

FlapMan,
I modified the earlier flight plan you remember the UGKO-UGTB that I tried many times with no success. This is the new plan:

UGKO
VP 342/[email protected]
TBS 113.70/[email protected]
UGTB

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VSDzyJ ... sp=sharing

At 32:35 from video you can see I am turning Left to get the Localizer centered in order to get back to DRMI LF1 Orange needle course.
At 37:25 I started turning Right slowly to get back to DRMI LF1 because of the Localizer been centre.

After reviewing Plan-G at the end of this journey (It is at the very end of the video too) I found a circled meaning trying to get the Localizer centered and later back to the DRMI LF1 Orange needle course.

I think I should stay in course with DRMI because anyway the Localizer will be centered at near the end of landing. Do you agree?

Also, I didn't see the Glideslope unflagged as always (lol). And also, right before touchdown the VOR Orange needle and the Localizer were deflected to the side. This doesn't make sense. Localizer could be deflected but not the DRMI Orange needle.
Pat

User avatar
AKar
A2A Mechanic
Posts: 4532
Joined: 26 May 2013

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post AKar »

trisho0 wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 17:37
I understand and I don't (lol). OK, if the G/S technically is considered a navaids then the Localizer too because both are detected from the Connie radios. ILS sends signals to Localizer from the end of the runway, right? If so, where is G/S signals coming from?
I think this part of Classroom is more technical than I thought. Clearly Connie is confusing my mind (lol).
In case you tune the ILS into NAV, you may be receiving up to three different signals, which use different antennae and radio equipment for both sending and receiving (although sometimes aircraft avionics integrate multiple radio hardware into single boxes).

These signals are:
  • Localizer signal. This is usually sent via an antenna array behind the far end of the approach runway. The localizer operates on VHF frequencies overlapping with the VOR frequency range (from 108.10 to 111.95 MHz), but is not related to the VOR in actual, technical function.
  • Glide slope signal. This is usually sent via an antenna array alongside the runway, next to the touchdown area. The glide slope operates on low UHF frequencies (from 328.6 to 335.4 MHz). The glide slope frequencies are paired with specific localizer frequencies.
  • DME signal. DME can be co-located with the glide slope antenna array, or it can be located elsewhere. The signal can also be "offset" to read distance from touchdown when the aircraft follows the approach path, instead of indicating actual distance to the DME station itself. The DME operates on UHF frequencies (from 962 to 1213 MHz). The DME frequencies are paired with VOR and localizer frequencies.
As all of the above can often be selected simply by tuning the NAV to the localizer frequency, it is not perfectly transparent that you are actually using three systems that are technically completely separate, and their relative positioning on the ground can vary vastly.

-Esa

Zacke
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 324
Joined: 27 Sep 2018
Location: EDNY

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post Zacke »

Cool! Thanks a lot for your explanations.

trisho0
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 611
Joined: 31 Mar 2018

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post trisho0 »

Hi Esa, Thanks for posting explanations of signals source.
Patricio

User avatar
AKar
A2A Mechanic
Posts: 4532
Joined: 26 May 2013

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post AKar »

trisho0 wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 10:02
Hi Esa, Thanks for posting explanations of signals source.
Patricio
No prob. As you wondered where the G/S signals came from in particular, for sake of it, try to spot the source yourself next time visiting an airport. :) Nowadays it is usually a small tower with (typically) three distinct antennae arranged on top of each other forming the array. It is usually located right next to the runway, alongside the touchdown area.

-Esa

trisho0
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 611
Joined: 31 Mar 2018

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post trisho0 »

AKar wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 10:12
trisho0 wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 10:02
Hi Esa, Thanks for posting explanations of signals source.
Patricio
No prob. As you wondered where the G/S signals came from in particular, for sake of it, try to spot the source yourself next time visiting an airport. :) Nowadays it is usually a small tower with (typically) three distinct antennae arranged on top of each other forming the array. It is usually located right next to the runway, alongside the touchdown area.

-Esa
Yeah! I have seen those circled little tower so that is the G/S source, cool! I learned to see PAPI lights to get the glideslope leveled from ILS gauge. Not easy for me (lol).
Pat

flapman
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 381
Joined: 10 Oct 2013

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post flapman »

Pat,
trisho0 wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 18:14
UGKO
VP 342/[email protected]
TBS 113.70/[email protected]
UGTB
This flight plan does not include an ILS. TBS is a VOR station, not an ILS. You intercepted and tracked inbound the TBS VOR Radial 313 (313-180=133 Omnibearing). Nice job.
Thank you guys for the further explanations. The Instrument Landing System is a system. It is made of different parts working together. AKar gives an excellent explanation of all the different receivers and indications that can be obtained by tuning the localizer frequency. You are tuning three different radios at the same time.

There are other components of the Instrument Landing System too. Marker Beacons, Approach Lights. Compass Locators, Localizer Back Course, supporting ATC Radar Services. etc..

The FAA describes the ILS generally as this:
Instrument Landing System (ILS)

General
The ILS is designed to provide an approach path for exact alignment and descent of an aircraft on final approach to a runway.
The basic components of an ILS are the localizer, glide slope, and Outer Marker (OM) and, when installed for use with Category II or Category III instrument approach procedures, an Inner Marker (IM).
The system may be divided functionally into three parts:
Guidance information: localizer, glide slope.
Range information: marker beacon, DME.
Visual information: approach lights, touchdown and centerline lights, runway lights.
There is much more to the system too.

User avatar
AKar
A2A Mechanic
Posts: 4532
Joined: 26 May 2013

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post AKar »

trisho0 wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 11:32
Yeah! I have seen those circled little tower so that is the G/S source, cool! I learned to see PAPI lights to get the glideslope leveled from ILS gauge. Not easy for me (lol).
Pat
And then you will find out that the PAPI and the G/S don't always agree with each other. :) There are multiple reasons for that, sometimes by design, sometimes otherwise. All this is what makes this fun.

-Esa

User avatar
AKar
A2A Mechanic
Posts: 4532
Joined: 26 May 2013

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post AKar »

flapman wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 11:45
Pat,
trisho0 wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 18:14
UGKO
VP 342/[email protected]
TBS 113.70/[email protected]
UGTB
This flight plan does not include an ILS. TBS is a VOR station, not an ILS. You intercepted and tracked inbound the TBS VOR Radial 313 (313-180=133 Omnibearing). Nice job.
Thank you guys for the further explanations. The Instrument Landing System is a system. It is made of different parts working together. AKar gives an excellent explanation of all the different receivers and indications that can be obtained by tuning the localizer frequency. You are tuning three different radios at the same time.

There are other components of the Instrument Landing System too. Marker Beacons, Approach Lights. Compass Locators, Localizer Back Course, supporting ATC Radar Services. etc..

The FAA describes the ILS generally as this:
Instrument Landing System (ILS)

General
The ILS is designed to provide an approach path for exact alignment and descent of an aircraft on final approach to a runway.
The basic components of an ILS are the localizer, glide slope, and Outer Marker (OM) and, when installed for use with Category II or Category III instrument approach procedures, an Inner Marker (IM).
The system may be divided functionally into three parts:
Guidance information: localizer, glide slope.
Range information: marker beacon, DME.
Visual information: approach lights, touchdown and centerline lights, runway lights.
There is much more to the system too.
Of course, the markers have been mostly put out of service. They are relatively uncommon nowadays, which becomes a problem if attempting the old school procedures on a modern environment.

-Esa

trisho0
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 611
Joined: 31 Mar 2018

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post trisho0 »

flapman wrote:
02 Oct 2020, 11:45
Pat,
trisho0 wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 18:14
UGKO
VP 342/[email protected]
TBS 113.70/[email protected]
UGTB
This flight plan does not include an ILS. TBS is a VOR station, not an ILS. You intercepted and tracked inbound the TBS VOR Radial 313 (313-180=133 Omnibearing). Nice job.
===>>> I added the VP navaids which is a NDB and it guided me to land ILS. But yes, no glideslope don't know why. I used the TBS as a DME to get the info I needed (distance left for landing). Am I missing?

Thank you guys for the further explanations. The Instrument Landing System is a system. It is made of different parts working together. AKar gives an excellent explanation of all the different receivers and indications that can be obtained by tuning the localizer frequency. You are tuning three different radios at the same time.

There are other components of the Instrument Landing System too. Marker Beacons, Approach Lights. Compass Locators, Localizer Back Course, supporting ATC Radar Services. etc..

The FAA describes the ILS generally as this:
Instrument Landing System (ILS)

General
The ILS is designed to provide an approach path for exact alignment and descent of an aircraft on final approach to a runway.
The basic components of an ILS are the localizer, glide slope, and Outer Marker (OM) and, when installed for use with Category II or Category III instrument approach procedures, an Inner Marker (IM).
The system may be divided functionally into three parts:
Guidance information: localizer, glide slope.
Range information: marker beacon, DME.
Visual information: approach lights, touchdown and centerline lights, runway lights.
===>>> This is great info, saving in my paper notes.

There is much more to the system too.
Pat

trisho0
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 611
Joined: 31 Mar 2018

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post trisho0 »

From Plan-G created a new flight plan which drove be crazy this time. It was so cold outside that I barely was be able to takeoff. Even the engineer didn't fix my problem. So, I flew without FE. I wonder why the two engines number 3-4 failed due to cabin flood.
I guess the engines crank procedures should be different in cold weather?

SEQM (VOR 2 VOR, SUCRE-LIMA)
LTV 117.1/[email protected]
MHV 112.1/[email protected]
CLA 114.9/[email protected]
TRU 116.3/[email protected]
SLS 114.7/[email protected]
LIM 113.8/[email protected]
SPJC

https://drive.google.com/file/d/13S_yJB ... sp=sharing

I had to stop video because it was time to sleep. I spent time so long dealing with engines startup with cold environment.
Any comments and help are welcome ...
Pat

trisho0
Technical Sergeant
Posts: 611
Joined: 31 Mar 2018

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post trisho0 »

FlapMan,
I have this following new flight plan for Connie:

SLCB (Altimeter shows 8,408ft AGL)
CBA 112.1/[email protected]
PAZ 115.7/[email protected]
R (NDB) 330KHz/[email protected]
SLLP (Altimeter shows 13,324ft AGL)

I am planning to set for Connie Altimeter gauge at 8,400 to Takeoff. I need a cruise at 18,000ft altitude but by adding 8,400 will be 26,400ft total for the cruise. Should I have a cruise of 26,400ft altitude or just stay at 18,000ft altitude as recommended from the Plan-G? The Arrival SLLP airport has 13,324ft altitude AGL. My plan is to do touchdown aiming at 13,300ft.
Pat

flapman
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 381
Joined: 10 Oct 2013

Re: Learning to fly the Connie

Post flapman »

Tbilisi not hard enough of an airport for you huh?
trisho0 wrote:
03 Oct 2020, 20:56
I am planning to set for Connie Altimeter gauge at 8,400 to Takeoff. I need a cruise at 18,000ft altitude but by adding 8,400 will be 26,400ft total for the cruise. Should I have a cruise of 26,400ft altitude or just stay at 18,000ft altitude as recommended from the Plan-G? The Arrival SLLP airport has 13,324ft altitude AGL. My plan is to do touchdown aiming at 13,300ft.
Pat
I see my student does not like reading his homework... :lol:
Have you ever flown your B737 at an altitude like FL264? Does this sound correct to you?

I am waiting for google to process the previous video to save me the download. Currently flying B.O.A.C flight BA285, LIRA-DNKN according to the 1958 timetable in the B377.

new reply

Return to “Lockheed Model 049 Constellation”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest