Full forward on yoke won't stop ballooning.

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CajunRon
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Joined: 16 May 2012

Full forward on yoke won't stop ballooning.

Post CajunRon »

First let me say I'm not a pilot, never have even flown in a cessna182 or anything close but I'm retired engineer and I've been simming for longer than many of you have been alive (anyone remember Sublogic Flight Simulator for the Commodore Amiga computer.) But long story short, I'm doing touch and goes to try to improve my landings in the Cessna 182 but I just can't seem to get it. As an example. I've turned on final, props are at 2200 rpm, airspeed is at 80 KIAS I'm fairly stable but not trimmed. I then apply first notch of flaps and the plane balloons. Okay I understand that but to try to get out of the balloon I push forward on the yoke, still ballooning. I push even further on the yoke all the way to the end of travel for my yoke and the plane is still ballooning. I didn't notice the manifold pressure but guessing I was half throttle. This just doesn't make sense to me that at half throttle, 80 KIAS and 2200 rpm pushing all the way forward on the yoke won't stop the plane from ballooning when I apply flaps. This has occurred numerous times that when in a climb at a fairly high rate of climb pushing all the way forward on the yoke won't stop the climb.(My yoke is a Honeycomb Alpha yoke if that matters). I use FSUIPC6 to calibrate my yoke. I've played around with using a linear calibration or the slope curve but this doesn't seem to make a difference. I've got all P3D controls disabled. Is this a fairly accurate depiction of real life or is something wrong with my setup or my flying?.

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DHenriquesA2A
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Joined: 27 Mar 2009
Location: East Coast United States

Re: Full forward on yoke won't stop ballooning.

Post DHenriquesA2A »

CajunRon wrote:
17 Oct 2020, 15:11
First let me say I'm not a pilot, never have even flown in a cessna182 or anything close but I'm retired engineer and I've been simming for longer than many of you have been alive (anyone remember Sublogic Flight Simulator for the Commodore Amiga computer.) But long story short, I'm doing touch and goes to try to improve my landings in the Cessna 182 but I just can't seem to get it. As an example. I've turned on final, props are at 2200 rpm, airspeed is at 80 KIAS I'm fairly stable but not trimmed. I then apply first notch of flaps and the plane balloons. Okay I understand that but to try to get out of the balloon I push forward on the yoke, still ballooning. I push even further on the yoke all the way to the end of travel for my yoke and the plane is still ballooning. I didn't notice the manifold pressure but guessing I was half throttle. This just doesn't make sense to me that at half throttle, 80 KIAS and 2200 rpm pushing all the way forward on the yoke won't stop the plane from ballooning when I apply flaps. This has occurred numerous times that when in a climb at a fairly high rate of climb pushing all the way forward on the yoke won't stop the climb.(My yoke is a Honeycomb Alpha yoke if that matters). I use FSUIPC6 to calibrate my yoke. I've played around with using a linear calibration or the slope curve but this doesn't seem to make a difference. I've got all P3D controls disabled. Is this a fairly accurate depiction of real life or is something wrong with my setup or my flying?.


A lot of flight simmers have a tendency to treat the 182 like a "light" GA aircraft. Forget that ! The 182 handles well BUT it is extremely trim sensitive. This doesn't mean you fly it with the trim. You DON'T! But a 182 handles MUCH better if it is in trim ALL THE TIME. This means that on approach you should be making sure you have yoke pressure neutralized with trim. On a properly flown approach in the 182 you will be re-trimming almost constantly as airspeed, power, and especially flaps are changed and/or applied.
If you are properly trimmed after your base turn as you make changes to your landing configuration the aircraft will seek a new pitch attitude but not enough that it can't be HELD WITH THE YOKE where you want it be. Just maintain yoke pressure and RE-TRIM the airplane.
This next statement is CRITICAL. You DON'T fly the aircraft with the trim. You FLY the aircraft with the primary controls. This is true for all airplanes but especially true for the 182 for a pilot transitioning from a lighter airplane.
The secret to flying the 182 is keeping it in trim all the time, but especially on approach and over the fence. Just remember, no matter where the nose wants to go, hold it where you want it with the yoke as you trim off the pressure. It's quite natural for a new pilot to allow the nose to change attitude in a 182. DON'T LET THE PLANE DO THAT! HOLD it where you want it and trim off the pressure required to hold it there.
Just keep practicing. You'll get it. Once you get the basics down pat it will become a whole lot easier.
See edit below;
Last edited by DHenriquesA2A on 18 Oct 2020, 08:20, edited 3 times in total.

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AKar
A2A Mechanic
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Joined: 26 May 2013

Re: Full forward on yoke won't stop ballooning.

Post AKar »

To me, something is definitely off if full opposite control can't arrest the "ballooning" from a configuration change. Perhaps a tech topic to have the gurus check your control assignments?

-Esa

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Nick - A2A
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Location: UK

Re: Full forward on yoke won't stop ballooning.

Post Nick - A2A »

Hello Ron,

Yes, it certainly shouldn't require anywhere near full forward pressure on the yoke to counteract the pitching up response to the first stage of flap deployment, particularly at the comparatively low airspeed of 80 KIAS that you mention.

If the aircraft is already so far out of trim when you extend the flaps that you can't push the yoke any further forward, that could explain the issue, but it would also be a very odd situation to be in. If anything, at this stage I'd expect the aircraft to be nose heavy (i.e. needing backward pressure on the yoke) if you've neglected to trim as airspeed bleeds off during your approach.

As Esa mentions, I think the first thing to check here is that you're getting the full range of control movement from your hardware. i.e. make sure that the elevator moves up and down through its full range when on the ground and also double check in the maintenance hangar for any reported problems with the elevator or elevator trim tab.

Thanks,
Nick
A2A Simulations Inc.

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DHenriquesA2A
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Joined: 27 Mar 2009
Location: East Coast United States

Re: Full forward on yoke won't stop ballooning.

Post DHenriquesA2A »

Edit: Reading what others have suggested I find I might have misread your post. It definitely would NOT be normal that a full application of control would not correct a pitch excursion as that would violate the certification specs for the aircraft and not be normal for how we coded the flight model. This being said there might be a good chance there is some conflict in your calibration chain or in the installation process for the airplane.
I'll let the gurus handle this one and take off my CFI hat. :-)
Dudley Henriques

CajunRon
Airman
Posts: 15
Joined: 16 May 2012

Re: Full forward on yoke won't stop ballooning.

Post CajunRon »

Thanks to all for the replies. The recommendation to always be in trim brings up another question. Trimming the A2A Cessna 182 by assigning trim up and down functions to buttons on my Alpha yoke through FSUIPC produces extremely slow responds of the trim wheel in the cockpit. So slow that I can't seem to keep the plane in trim. Researching this issue suggested that instead of using FSUIPC direct button assignment, I assigned keyboard keys to trim up / trim down in P3D and then assign my Alpha yoke buttons to these keyboard key assignments. This produces a variable speed trim wheel. Initially the trim wheel turns slowly but as I hold the trim button the speed of the trim wheel speeds up. I'm assuming this variable speed trim wheel is what A2A intended in designing the Cessna 182 model since this is what would occur if I was using the keyboard to adjust trim.

In my episode with ballooning my trim functions were assigned through the direct assignment in FSUIPC (i.e. extremely slow response) so I suspect this may have been part of the problem of not being in trim. What is the correct way to assign joystick buttons to the trim function through FSUIPC?

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Nick - A2A
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Location: UK

Re: Full forward on yoke won't stop ballooning.

Post Nick - A2A »

If you're using button to trim Ron, I recommend you try the "yoke trim up" and "yoke trim down" functions in the A2A C182 input configurator which is available in the Windows start menu. These functions provide a trim rate which is a close match to the manual electric trim rate in the real aircraft.

However, this is based on the assumption that you haven't globally disabled controllers in P3D because you're using FSUIPC. Alternatively you could use the "offset sword" function for trim in FSUIPC itself - there's a bit more info describing this approach here. Bear in mind that you can adjust the parameter value (specifically the integer before the "/") to control the exact trim rate for each button press event.

The variable speed trim function is a feature of FSX/P3D and not a particularly realistic one, because the manual electric trim switches in the real aircraft produce a constant trim rate.

Thanks,
Nick
A2A Simulations Inc.

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