ADF System - Bendix King - KR 87 Silver Crown

[ACE-9]

Tally Ho.

I tuned the KR87 ADF to 339 Khz the NDB (BIA) at EGHH
Set mode to ANT,
Check - Needle parks at 90 Deg with morse code verification - OK
Set mode to ADF,
Check - Needle deflects towards the direction of the NDB with morse verification - OK

Jolly Good, off we go short hop from EGHH to EGHI Tune in the standby Frq to 391.5 Khz the NDB (EAS) at EGHI

Swap frqs.
Needle parks at 90 deg - OK
Set Mode to ANT (wait 1 min)
FAIL - morse code verification
Set Mode to ADF (wait 1 minute)
FAIL - needle deflection and morse verification.

Check - Is ADF within radio range of the NDB - YES
Check - Leave tuned for 5 minutes - FAIL
Check - Swap back to BIA - OK - The needle once again indicates the direction back to BIA (339Khz).
Check - Tuning 391.5 Khz on the FSX default C172 - OK - Needle deflection towards the (EAS) NDB + morse verification. (however there is the ability to manually tune in the 0.5Khz)

So how does the 0.5Khz get tuned?

The Bendix King KR 87 Silver Crown Frequency Selection / pg 42 does not appear to mention the ability to tune 5Khz or (1/10ths) "Pull the small inner knob out to tune 1’s. Push the smaller inner knob in to tune 10’s. The outer knob tunes the 100’s and the 1000’s up to 1799." No mention of any 0.5k shift https://www.bendixking.com/en/~/media/b ... -guide.pdf

P.S.
The ADF KR 87 system in the A2A C172 fails the same.

[Nick - A2A]

Hi Roger,

Because the real Bendix King KR 87 ADF doesn't support decimal frequency entry, this behaviour is reproduced in A2A's version. However, as you've noted, FSX and P3D are somewhat unrealistic in that frequencies have to be precisely tuned to the given frequency to pick up on a navaid. This is unfortunately a limitation of the sim platform itself. The solution in the A2A aircraft is to use the Shift 6 'quick radios' 2-D pop-up panel to tune in the .5.

If you toggle between active and standby ADF frequencies any .5 setting will be retained (just not visible) so that would be a way to avoid having to use the Shift 6 panel more than once per session. You just need to try and remember which of the two frequencies you've assigned the .5 to.

Thanks,
Nick

[ACE-9]

Hi Nick,

OK thank God for Quick Radios, having read the manuals, I did not see any info on this - so thank God as well for the Forum and your mega quick reply Nick, thanks again.

I guess I could assign the 5k shift event ID to an encoder if the quick radio is programed with that in mind? looking at the PA28 Lvar list, there is no mention of panel windows like quick radios, is it possible to assign a physical rotary encoder for the 5k shift on the quick radios, having a mouse free home cockpit, am trying to keep it as real as possible?

Just for a laugh: - Reality Challenged outside of P3D / FSX - SkyVector reports 391.5 Khz - Airport Nav Finder reports 391 Khz

Edited to replace broken links..

[ACE-9]

HI Nick,

Notwithstanding your answer above I am not happy with the operation of the KR 87. Here's why.

1) Mainly because my Aerosoft Twin Otter has exactly the same Bendix King radios including the KR 87 ADF unit and it correctly identifies the station EAS without the need to use a 0.10 Khz shift knob. If aerosoft can do it, why not A2A

2) More importantly as both FSX and P3D use the fractional Khz NDB frequency's, I believe that the world leading A2A simulation aircraft should be able to act accordingly in the environment they are designed to work in, without needing to use a pop up panel window namely quick radios, this is a poor work around for such a prestigious simulation aircraft manufacturer.

3) This little problem caused by strict attention to detail is, for me at least, very annoying, especially in view of the top quality product that A2A do produce, using quick radios actually makes the simulation less real, it takes away from the very real experience of flying IFR in FSX and P3D.

4) FSX P3D add on's specially aircraft and their radios should be able to perform within the environment they have been designed to operate in just like Aerosoft have done with their Twin Otter at least. Its almost as if the A2A ADF is not fit for purpose and that hurts to say.

5) If the real world "Airport Nav finder" and "Sky Vector" cannot agree on a standard and FSX and P3D have a frequency standard its not out dated - both should be implemented.

6) How does the Real KR 87 tune in to a fraction of a frequency, (0.10 Khz) most probable a with in range seek function if there is one. I am going to look in to this because I do not understand why Sky Vector states NDB (EAS) at EGHI is 391.50 Khz

Sorry about the rant, but after trying to make light of your work around, I am just getting more and more hacked off not being able to fly IFR or use the ADF without getting my mouse out on the quick radios, having spent a shed load of money on a mouse free environment

I do hope that you guys can solve this in an update and I hope you understand what I am saying here - I still love A2A by the way but by strictly adhering to the real world function of the real world KR 87 in the simulated environment - the unavoidable consequence is subtracting from the authentic realism of the simulation aircraft. I for one purchase A2A because of the realism and customer service is top notch too.

I live in hope that I have made sense? I mean to say I would prefer the KR 87 ADF was able to be tuned correctly, rather than be able to individually control the left and right footwell air vents with the ability to point the simulated air in to the foot well or under the seats. This is pointless - forgive the pun lol...

Typo edit..

[Nick - A2A]

Thanks for the feedback Roger.

I've mentioned this to the development team, so will see what we can do in terms of making tuning .5 KHz frequencies more accessible when using the KR 87.

Regards,
Nick

[ACE-9]

Hi Nick, you are a star.

Proof positive customer support is the best.

I've been doing a bit of research in to this issue, looking at the real world CAA Document "Description of NDB and ADF Operation and Definition of Protection Requirements" pdf found here: - https://www.icao.int/safety/acp/ACPWGF/ ... gf5_15.doc

Under Section 2.2.1 Applicable Standards states: - "Within Europe, the EUROCAE document ED-51 [Ref 4] specifies performance requirements, whilst in the US the RTCA document document DO-179 [Ref 5} gives minimum operational performance standards." then it states this " The only difference between these documents is the requirement for 0.5Khz tuning resolution in Europe."

So it appears that the KR87 should be able to tune the 0.5Khz in the real world after all SkyVector exonerated

Many thanks once again Nick, please also let the team also know that the C172 has this issue too, don't know about the C182.

[alioth]

So it appears that the KR87 should be able to tune the 0.5Khz in the real world after all

You can't tune a 0.5khz in real KR87.
The question is that in real life, you can hear a a 250.5khz with a 250khz dial set.
Like music stations. You can hear music if you move a little the dial.

But in fsx/p3d, this aspect is not well simulated and you need to dial the exact frequency in order to make it work.
The problem is not the a2a avionics, but the simulator.

There is a mod with fsuipc that works with standard aircrafts, but not very well with a2a avionics, because they are custom coded (well coded).

In order to make and old adf receiver work in my home cockpit, I wrote a script to use it with the a2a comanche.



The script works in this way:
You put 250khz, and wait 5 seconds waiting for signal
If there is valid signal, it stays in 250khz
If there is not a valid signal, it looks for 250.5khz, and wait 5 seconds for a valid signal.
If there is signal, it stays in 250.5.... if not, it changes it to 250 again and wait 5 seconds.. etc etc...

It works fine in my home cockpit. So it can sure be done.
A2A can do it.
Or everyone with fsuipc and some lua script.

Arturo.

[Nick - A2A]

Thanks for chiming in Arturo.

We've just been having a small discussion behind the scenes about which method would be the best to make tuning the NDBs which end in .5 KHz frequencies a bit more user friendly. Admittedly there aren't many of them (mostly in the UK it seems) but the question does crop up now and again, so it's one we'd like to address if practical.

Cheers,
Nick

[ACE-9]

Many Thanks for the replies both of you.

Arturo, I love your test set up in the video, very impressive. Please forgive my ignorance, but are you saying that in the real world the KR 87 will respond accurately to a 1/2 Khz's worth of bandwidth station bleed over when tuned in to a whole unshifted frequency i.e. KR 87 tuned to 391Khz will pick up by happenstance an NDB broadcasting 391.5Khz or are you saying that the real world KR 87 has an automatic 0.5Khz seek function?

Sorry for my confusion.

[alioth]

are you saying that in the real world the KR 87 will respond accurately to a 1/2 Khz's worth of bandwidth station bleed over when tuned in to a whole unshifted frequency i.e. KR 87 tuned to 391Khz will pick up by happenstance an NDB broadcasting 391.5Khz

That is correct.
I have read in some adf receivers operation book that a difference of ±0.25 kHz enables full coverage. Hopefully, a 0.5khz difference will lose some range, but it will tune the ndb.

Arturo.

[Lewis - A2A]

Think analogue not digital and as Nick said earlier in the thread, its like your car radio. The radio station doesn't exist on a single band but across a range. This is why the real units don't have the exact freq tuning as it wasn't required until recently (after C172 release, and many many years of FSX, P3D release) when things have started to change to a more 'digital' world.

thanks,
Lewis

[ACE-9]

Thank you very much gentlemen for the excellent explanations, I am totally clear now and I really appreciate your time explaining this to me, thank you all.

I am already very grateful to the minute attention to detail A2A invests in their products so If you guys can make the simulated KR 87 in the C172 and PA28 work on the same lines in FSX / P3D for a mouse free cockpit, then that would be the cherry on top of the cake.

Thanks again gents, tally ho, looking forward to hearing more about the possible update.

[Nick - A2A]

[...] looking forward to hearing more about the possible update.

We've just released it for the Cherokee Roger. Updates for the ADF sets in other aircraft will follow in due time.

In the end, we enabled an 'autotune' option, much as Arturo describes above. Please let us know if you have any questions or difficulties using it.

Thanks,
Nick

[ACE-9]

Nick, and the team, many many thanks indeed for the just installed update. I will test it out and report back.
A2A CS is fantastic, a mega happy customer, but I always was

Edit 22:20 hrs 25/11/19

RESULTS: - 1st look at ADF 0.5 Khz brings a huge thumbs up | EGHI 391.5 Khz to EGHH 339 Khz Bloomin marvelous, the 5 sec delay switching form 339 to 391.5 almost had me lol now we can fly full old school IFR to my favorites like EGMC - EGFF and so on in the A2A PA28.

Thank You Nick and the A2A team once again.

PS is the plan to do this upgrade to the Cessna C172, it has the same KR97? I I dont know about the C182 - but its next on my purchase list

[Lewis - A2A]

Yes, we have update coming for 172, maybe next depending on a couple things. A lot going on behind the scenes

thanks,
Lewis - A2A