C172 and Saitek FIP Panels

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dickb
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C172 and Saitek FIP Panels

Post by dickb »

I was planning to buy this a/c, which looks terrific, but I am hearing that it is incompatible with external Saitek FIP panels i.e. they do not read the same as the VC gauges. That would be a show stopper for me. Can someone confirm/refute this ?

RickSinGA
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Re: C172 and Saitek FIP Panels

Post by RickSinGA »

Same incorrect FIP gauge problem here. I run 21 Saitek Pro Flight devices including 12 FIP Gauges. I am also having real fits making switches and controllers work, and calibrate, correctly every time with the Trainer. It's like opening a new box of chocolates every time I load the trainer, I never know what I am going to get. I turned off the controllers in FSX and use FSUIPC along with SPAD but they don't effect the FIP's. Not sure what I am going to find when I try loading my other GA aircraft, which used to run fine.

I really like what I see but my frustration level is pegged. I will step back until I see some of the issues brought forth, by so many, are resolved.

Rick S.

jsrickel
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Re: C172 and Saitek FIP Panels

Post by jsrickel »

I'm having the same issue with incorrect gauge readings on the Saitek FIP, specifically the readings on the RPM, Fuel Flow, EGT and Oil Temperature gauges. I'm using Tom Tsui's most excellent replacement gauges and have never had this problem on other aircraft. Since I run 15 Saitek FIPs in my home cockpit, this is most certainly a deal breaker for me. I love everything else about this awesome plane! It is the absolute best C172 I have ever seen, but if I can't use it in my setup, it will be a waste of money.

I know that you all at A2A are committed to quality and customer service and am confident that in due time all these issues will be resolved. It is obvious that you all are very hard at work. You have created the absolute best C172 Trainer on the market! Well done and many thanks! I can't wait to have it working on my system. Please update us on this specific issue. I haven't seen any replies that deal with this aspect of incorrect gauge reading on the Saitek FIPs.

Many thanks!
James

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Lewis - A2A
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Re: C172 and Saitek FIP Panels

Post by Lewis - A2A »

Hello Guys,

you will have to use some custom mapping and what not to get these units to work correctly as everything you have mentioned so far is all custom programmed as FSX wasn't able to deliver realistic performance using its one shoe fits all approach.

I believe cockpit builders that use our aircraft and other developers complex add ons use things such as LINDA to correctly get the outputs from customized systems for the simpits. I'm not a simpit guy so I've no idea but ill have a talk to one of the LINDA experts around here who might be able to help

thanks,
Lewis - A2A
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RickSinGA
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Re: C172 and Saitek FIP Panels

Post by RickSinGA »

Thanks for the reply Lewis but from my limited knowledge of Tom Tsui's work I believe Tom at http://fsxtimes.wordpress.com/ uses simple XML coding to program his gauges. I certainly hope he sees this thread and chimes in. His gauges are absolutely stunning and match all of the VC gauges in "every aircraft" I use. He has a large following and this topic has topped his forum too.

We all hope it is a simple solution.

Thanks
Rick S.

tmtsui
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Re: C172 and Saitek FIP Panels

Post by tmtsui »

Hello all,

I did try using a few other RPM gauges found on other FIP gauge forums, all responsed the same as follows:

- works normally below 1000 RPM
- then needle moves slower than the one shown on the Trainer
- needle never passes the 2100 RPM borderline

The reading is about 400 PRM lower than the one shown on the C172. The XML codes used are as follows and nothing fancy:

<Rotate>
<Value Minimum="0" Maximum="35">(A:General eng1 rpm,RPM) 100 /</Value>
<Nonlinearity>
<Item Value="0" X="65" Y="167"/>
<Item Value="5" X="50" Y="120"/>
<Item Value="10" X="65" Y="72"/>
<Item Value="15" X="105" Y="43"/>
<Item Value="20" X="155" Y="43"/>
<Item Value="25" X="195" Y="72"/>
<Item Value="30" X="210" Y="120"/>
<Item Value="35" X="195" Y="167"/>
</Nonlinearity>
</Rotate>

Also, tried the recently released RPM gauge from Saitek which uses a different command.

<Value Minimum="0" Maximum="35">(A:Prop1 RPM,RPM) 100 /</Value>.

The result was even worse - needle never passes 1500 RPM.

As Rick mentioned, these codes are standard Gauge Simulation Variables from Microsoft for FSX.

If my (and other people's) RPM gauge is working correctly on the Default, AeroSoft, Cessna and Flight-1 aircrafts -- no matter if they are a C172, the only culprit I can think of causing the problem is this C172 Trainer, which should have something doesn't comply with the standard Simulation Variables.

Similarly, my FuelFlow, ETG and Oil Temperature gauges are behaving abnormally.

Especially the Fuelflow one, when I lean the mixture, it responses very slowly in the beginning then drops rapidly.

Again, the codes I am using are pretty standard, too.

<Rotate>
<Value Minimum="0" Maximum="19">(A:Eng1 fuel flow GPH,gallons per hour)</Value>
<Nonlinearity>
<Item Value="0" Degrees="210" />
<Item Value="5" Degrees="220" />
<Item Value="10" Degrees="258" />
<Item Value="15" Degrees="294" />
<Item Value="19" Degrees="330" />
</Nonlinearity>
</Rotate>

Looking forward to a fix soon.

Thanks
Tom

Molly - A2A
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Re: C172 and Saitek FIP Panels

Post by Molly - A2A »

tmtsui wrote:the only culprit I can think of causing the problem is this C172 Trainer, which should have something doesn't comply with the standard Simulation Variables.
That's exactly it, Accu-sim adds simulation outside of the core of FSX so products that were designed only to read default FSX aircraft (or aircraft designed to operate within the limitations of standard FSX aircraft) tend to have problems like you have encountered. Maybe they can come up with a way to output the necessary data to such devices though.

N6722c
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Re: C172 and Saitek FIP Panels

Post by N6722c »

molleh wrote:
tmtsui wrote:the only culprit I can think of causing the problem is this C172 Trainer, which should have something doesn't comply with the standard Simulation Variables.
That's exactly it, Accu-sim adds simulation outside of the core of FSX so products that were designed only to read default FSX aircraft (or aircraft designed to operate within the limitations of standard FSX aircraft) tend to have problems like you have encountered. Maybe they can come up with a way to output the necessary data to such devices though.
If there was an Accusim C172R SDK, then you would know the right processed Accusim L:Var to use, to say send to your cockpit Engine RMP Gauge. Try (L:Eng1_RPM_Real, RPM)
Last edited by N6722c on 10 Sep 2013, 14:56, edited 1 time in total.
Geoff

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Re: C172 and Saitek FIP Panels

Post by Hoeller »

It's not a C172 Trainer specific problem, it's the same with all Accusimed aircrafts. When the Cub was launched I made gauge composer instruments for it, it's possible but it's a lot of work. You have to figure what LVars are used (A simple list from A2A of LVars with details like units used, description would be very welcomed!), use a LUA script to rewrite the correct values in free FSUIPC offsets, and use these custom offsets to feed your hardware or software external gauges, providing they can be tweaked to use other than default offsets.

Custom switches and knobs can be interfaced the same way (I remember being able to interface a pot to the cabin heat lever of the Cub for instance). So it's doable though certainly not easy.

Regards,
Olivier

tmtsui
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Re: C172 and Saitek FIP Panels

Post by tmtsui »

In this case, A2A should clearly mention this requirement in their product page because quite a lot of simmers now are using Saitek gears.

As a first time user of A2A aircrafts, how could I know that it is so troublesome.

If I had known this earlier, I wouldn't have bought the aircraft, or at least I would wait and see if it is good for me. :cry: :cry: :!: :!:

Also, under this undeclared situation, I think it should be the company's support to provide a solution, rather than having customers to solve it by themselves.

ROB - A2A
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Re: C172 and Saitek FIP Panels

Post by ROB - A2A »

The solution is rather easy, you can ask us what is the variable name for given gauge and use it instead of the default one.

For example the RPM gauge:

<Value Minimum="0" Maximum="35">(A:General eng1 rpm,RPM) 100 /</Value>

raplace (A:General eng1 rpm,RPM) with (L:Eng1_RPM,RPM), let it look like this:

<Value Minimum="0" Maximum="35">(L:Eng1_RPM,RPM) 100 /</Value>

That's all.

regards
ROB
A2A Simulations Inc.

RickSinGA
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Re: C172 and Saitek FIP Panels

Post by RickSinGA »

I may be naive but I don't understand why A2A does not use the normal code calls. Why make users, many who will never understand how, jump through hoops to use their products.

Just thought about it some more. The gauges work but are inaccurate or erratic, why? Is the data somehow going through a filter or being slowed down by program loops or code inefficiency? (not taking shots, just brainstorming)

Is there a reasonable answer?

Thanks
Rick S.
Last edited by RickSinGA on 07 Sep 2013, 09:53, edited 1 time in total.

ROB - A2A
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Re: C172 and Saitek FIP Panels

Post by ROB - A2A »

We replaced almost everything in FSX. FS engine is very good to recreate a generic aircraft but when you go deeper into details of a particular aircraft, you have to cut it off the generic core and plug into a dedicated system designed for this particular aircraft.

regards
ROB
A2A Simulations Inc.

RickSinGA
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Re: C172 and Saitek FIP Panels

Post by RickSinGA »

Are you saying that you use completely different calls for instrumentation and controls? So we should treat the C172 Trainer as a whole different FSX. By that I mean that we all have to relearn FSX all over and start trying to understand your coding and throw out everything we have learned or done to date. Please, don't take that statement an accusation, I am just trying to understand.

If that is true I would think most people with instrument laden cockpits will have a very steep learning curve, especially if they are not code literate or know someone who is. How hard would it be to make the data available in the standard format, not changing your code but make the data available if needed?

Bottom line, you guys have done an outstanding job. The plane is spectacular in almost every way but trying to use it in my situation is proving to be work at this point in time.

Thanks
Rick S.

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some1 - A2A
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Re: C172 and Saitek FIP Panels

Post by some1 - A2A »

RickSinGA wrote: How hard would it be to make the data available in the standard format, not changing your code but make the data available if needed?
That's impossible. The standard variables are constantly overwritten by FSX engine with its own, usually incorrect, calculations.
Michael Krawczyk

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