Phillips66 Aviation sponsors the A2A Accu-Sim C172 Trainer

[Hook]

...a good marketing tool for Mobil...

Except that it's Phillips 66.

Hook

[Jachin]

I would also be interested in any pricing info. I want to be able to get this on the release day. I've been simming for 25 yrs and never looked forward to anything more than this! Just as a side thought-if it really is down to whether there will be a pink version-PLEASE JUST GIVE US THE AIRPLANE! You're killing us! Seriously, thanks for all the work work. This aircraft is going to be epic.

[alehead]

So what do we Europeans do? We can't get Philips66 oils over here

Jokes apart. Can't wait to see this on the virtual shelves...

A


Andrew Entwistle

[budmorgan]

This thought just occurred to me - If the aircraft deteriorates in real time, what if the maintenance was done in real time as well? E.g.: Annuals take a week... and we've got to wait a whole week before we can sim our 172 again! Replacing the prop took a few days, etc... All the little things that keep us grounded were translated into real time. Of course there would have to be a toggle switch for those that treat their birds like lawn darts, but my guess is that purists who typically stick to tubeliners or warbirds might be just intrigued enough to make the jump.

By no means is this intended to be a feature request. Just brainstorming...

Cheers!

Bud

[Scott - A2A]

Lovely! This is getting more and more interesting by each peek to the features! Hope the development is progressing smoothly.
Out of curiosity, and for discussion, the manufacturer's recommendation for oil change interval, for what I'm aware, is 50 hours TIS or four months, whichever occurs first.

Yes, that is true but after many months of discussions with various experts and our own analysis, the recommendation we're seeing is 25 hours when not flown that often and 40 hours when flown several times a week. The reason for this is, the older oil traps moisture and acids begin to form. Much of the internal damage is caused when the engine is idle, from corrosion, and not from the wear and tear while running. Accu-Sim for the C172 Trainer models this.

Also, different engines have different tolerances, so on one engine, the oil may become black in only 20 hours while on other it takes longer.

One mechanic suggested to us, that he drains the oil every 25 hours to just get all that black dirty stuff out of there, and changes the filter every 50 hours.

Hey Scott,
Just curious, will the IO-360 for this 172 come in both 160hp derated and 180hp standard varieties?
Cheers
TJ

Yes, but be aware the de-rated IO-360 is the same as the 180hp IO-360. It's the prop that is different. We allow you to change the prop, essentially giving you a 172S.

Scott.

[some1 - A2A]

Just as a side thought-if it really is down to whether there will be a pink version-PLEASE JUST GIVE US THE AIRPLANE!

Pink version is already there.

[MarcE]

Just as a side thought-if it really is down to whether there will be a pink version-PLEASE JUST GIVE US THE AIRPLANE!

Pink version is already there.

muahahahaha niiiice xDDD ready to confuse my girlfriend *g*

[Nico081]

Just as a side thought-if it really is down to whether there will be a pink version-PLEASE JUST GIVE US THE AIRPLANE!

Pink version is already there.

muahahahaha niiiice xDDD ready to confuse my girlfriend *g*

Congrats MarcE,

this was your post #"172"

To mark the occasion Scott should release an dev. update video, what do you think of that?

[MarcE]

Pink version is already there.

muahahahaha niiiice xDDD ready to confuse my girlfriend *g*

Congrats MarcE,

this was your post #"172"

To mark the occasion Scott should release an dev. update video, what do you think of that?

muahahahaha true xD
Must be a sign, the 172 is about to be realeased? Scott? Lewis?

[AKar]

Hi Scott, and thanks for your time -

I fully agree technically on what you are saying. Changing oil every 25 hours if flown very rarely is probably a good advice, though I tend to think that the 4-month calendar interval is quite close to 25 flight hours anyway in those cases, plus or minus some. As with any machine, not using it is often actually more harmful to the aircraft than regular use - it's great that this now begins to be modeled, as in real life too that is often neglected.

However, if flown regularly I'd still argue that there is no problem flying the aircraft using the same oil to the 50-hour interval. You'd got the additional benefit of having the oil change scheduled to your 50-hour/100-hour inspection, if adhered. Obviously, the oil gets dark after some use, but that's normal in piston engines. The combustion products, together with the condensation do cause acids to form which are harmful to the engine, but the engine oils are buffered to account that up to certain point, that is, the oils have an ability (a limited one obviously) to neutralize acids. After some discussions, I'd say that 50 hours is no problem at all. Still if, and only if, flown regularly.

Of course there is the problem of less flying aircraft. Then the water that finds a way into the engine together with the combustion products cause several different acids to form locally in the system and the corrosive process occurs, as you say. That's why Cessna recommends that if not flown regularly, you should at least put the aircraft to "flyable storage" which they think is good for up to 30 days. The point with this mode of storage is that you should fly the aircraft, with the engine continuously operating at the recommended temperatures for at least an hour, every 30 days at least. Actually, for everyone who is interested, and has an access to the AMM, I recommend checking out the chapter 10-11-00 that discusses the storage of an aircraft for different periods of no operation. Some good points around there about this stuff now getting simulated (first time in FS I presume?). One thing that is actually very harmful to any engine, no matter if that's an automotive one, or aircraft engine, is that some time after a period of not running the engine, one thinks that a quick engine run is a nice thing to do. Actually, what happens is that the corrosive mixture of water and materials from combustion just get moved around in the system doing more harm than good. The engine needs to be thoroughly warmed up to dry the condensation out of the oil circulation.


I'd like to ask if the C172 Trainer has a feature to put the aircraft in storage for those of us who do fly in sim more like from time to time?


A long message, sorry about that everyone.. Just to summarize, I picked up that recommendation of 40-hour interval and thought that I might point out that if a good oil is used, and in reasonably normal atmospheric conditions, it would make no adverse effects to operate the engine up to (and perhaps beyond of, but that would be out of question for me) the manufacturer's recommendation of 50 hours, if operated regularly. Not sure if the actual water content in oil is feasible to simulate, but if we talk about weeks of not being in use, a thorough run of at least an hour with warm oils before shutdown is a must, and in dry hangar conditions, that should be good for some weeks. For a full winter for example, some more thorough preservation measures should be taken.



-Esa

[Scott - A2A]

Esa,

The 25/40hr rule something came from a former chief chemist in a major oil company who we is one of those people doing his own tests and coming to his own conclusions. After several hours of good discussion, he convinced us that using the existing 50hr/4 month standard is a bit too long. Rather than peddle the same old, we would rather take the safer route. If anything, this could open the debate up which is always a good thing. Based on your well-informed response, this has already happened

Scott.

[n421nj]

I see a lot of options for this new Cessna from type and grade of oil to type of spark plug, battery, and even tires. Now I'm no expert and still rent a plane from the FBO where I got my license. I know nothing about airplane ownership. Will there be hint boxes over each item describing its benefits and weaknesses? For example what grade oil to select for what temperatures and benefits of each type of spark plug, ect. I know it would help me out a lot.

[Lewis - A2A]

I see a lot of options for this new Cessna from type and grade of oil to type of spark plug, battery, and even tires. Now I'm no expert and still rent a plane from the FBO where I got my license. I know nothing about airplane ownership. Will there be hint boxes over each item describing its benefits and weaknesses? For example what grade oil to select for what temperatures and benefits of each type of spark plug, ect. I know it would help me out a lot.

Yes theres a little bits and bobs in game plus of course a great manual thats currently in production - and I will say its the manual to end all manuals, its a stunner!

[AKar]

Scott,

Yes discussion is always a good and refreshing thing as we only have our own views and knowledge without it.
When I used to work with GA aircraft, I often had to listen to the aircraft owner, the operator, the mechanics maintaining it, the 'official word' of regulations and manufacturers' publications, and the interpretation of those by CAA representatives and company managers responsible to them. I can tell that often all of them disagreed quite a bit! Same goes with the airlines of course - an educated eye sees that certain airline for example uses systematically less take-off power than another... actually many 737-800s measure same length of the runway that fully loaded A340-300s do, as they use full derates plus assumed temps calculated for balanced field and even CLB-2 derates after that. Unlike you would think after reading certain forums in the internet, there are often no 'correct' answers: derating conserves the hot sections of the engines, full power and up as quick as you can conserves some fuel if done at optimum profile. It's up to airline to decide how they want to balance their costs. Safetywise, the full power increases field and obstacle margins, the derate decreases the yaw moment on engine failure, increases reaction time, and so on.

What that has to do with oil change interval?
Well, I'd say it is more or less the same thing here. What traditional simulators have done badly are the statistics of operation. If you open your fuel valve too early, you get a hot start. If you exceed your replacement time, you'll magically start grinding iron. Now, in real life the properties of oil constantly degrade in service. There is nothing mysterious happening at 50 hours time in service or at four months. Or at any other time in service. It is just a matter of finding a compromise - a suitable point on a curve, that is, an invisible curve that varies infinitely between different aircraft and different operating conditions.
Instead, more or less based on service experience, the manufacturer has set that to be their acceptable interval while being fully accountable to their overseeing authority doing so. Not only due to oil properties, but also because the oil filter change is the chance to spot any premature wear in the engine. And it's always a compromise applicable to a fleet of thousands of aircraft, all in different shapes (straight from the factory!!), of different histories, different usages, from different environmental conditions....
If I would operate, let's say, a new 172S for aerial work, that flies 500 hours a year, that is, a lot, I would adhere to that 50-hour/4-month limit but would think it actually is an overkill. After some time without problems I might apply for an extension to 100 hours (though would probably not get that due to AMM and SB480 being the official word and not having a reliability programme at hand with a fleet of one!). The TBO of the engine would be 2200 hours TIS per Lycoming SI1009AV, that is, a bit more than four years at that rate. Not much. In constant and frequent service, my experience, though quite limited, is the same as one of my "sources" to this matter, a long-time mechanic, ex-quality manager and used-to-be continuing airworthiness manager, cleverly put it: "There are much bigger reliability issues in the aircraft piston engines to worry about than the precise oil change interval".
However, if the aircraft is on lesser use, and supposed to use it's engine without overhaul up to the calendar-based interval of 12 years, and pass the overhaul at minimum costs, that would be whole another situation to consider. Of course, in a sim we do not have to consider costs and mission availability rate (what's the equivalent civilian term?), but I think it is important to remember that the decisions about aircraft maintenance schedules, up to the actions so routine as an oil change interval, are always done on a statistical axis of investing more to increase safety margins with constantly more diminishing returns. Of course, you as aircraft owners know and understand that very well, I just want us to remember how these manufacturer recommendations on which we base our maintenance schedules are created.

Moreover, as you said how the debate is good, I can only agree. All too often we take the written word as a holy word without any critique or thinking ("When should I disconnect the autopilot on final?" Sheesh... when you feel that you want to continue manually perhaps?). I have been there when an oil scavenge pump of a Piper aircraft was totally destroyed due to a check valve in a turbocharger oil line giving up and the debris ending up into the assembly. As it turns out, the exact same valve is on a calendar time limit in some Cessnas, but on condition in Pipers. As in real life the pure luck is always a factor no matter how hard you try and are exactly in compliance with the manufacturer's recommendations (the whole story was pure real life Murphy but I leave it there). We learn either from each other, or the expensive way by our selves. Sometimes that way is unfortunately a fatal one. Why I find your products quite unique is that you can make mistakes same deceptive way that in real life - that is, without immediate and obvious punishment. That goes especially with things like oil changes in real life. You just have to balance them to suit your operations. There are limits that should not be exceeded without good reasons, but how we play our cards within the rules depend on the situation at hand. And the result is also dependent on that pure luck too!

-Esa

[zebra288]

Edited - Posted in wrong thread :\


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