Are Emils sitting ducks?

[Jethro]

Hi, I have to declare beforehand that all my remarks are only the feelings I got playing, I'm not a RL pilot.

My first reaction when I tried the Me109 recently (after years spent mainly flying British stuff...) was "wow!... this is something really different!".
I like very much how Spits Hurries and Emils behave so distinctively, really impressive.

Yet I notice that the dogfight is very easy if I fly a Spit against a '109; in "one on one", (adversary set to "hero") I win without any effort, and so is in larger encounters, (only some snappers suddenly appearing at my six are sometimes a worry...) I never felt myself in danger, a direct adversary never becomes threatening for me (and I'm not a big ace for sure...). On the contrary, when I am in a 109 against a Spit, the latter chases me like hell in a very tight and challenging dogfight and winning is very tough.

It seems to me that the 109 usually are busy enough trying to keep their planes flying, than really thinking about shooting at me.

I've two ideas; AI firstly: may be aggressiveness is still an issue: 109s don't seem to have a big appetite for combat.

Secondly, Emil's FM is very tough, a 109 seems to be very unstable when manoeuvering: even at 360 and more Kph, an easy turn is a little nightmare. The vertical manoeuvres aren't easier IMHO.
Again, my impression is that "German" AI doesn't feel "comfortable" with the FM and cannot fly and fight well enough at the same time (one of the features publicized for WoV is that AI uses a "realistic approach" to FM, without "cheating" while manoeuvering: that's why I have such a concern...).

Tried to tweak the powerplants in the 109 FM (1175 instead of 1050 CVs) to give the Emils a little boost, but they seem to be irremediably outperfomed in combat (in "Luftwaffe advantage" 12 vs 12, without considering my kills, my German wingmen barely get a single kill, often no kills at all, while the British usually get three or four easily).

Had anyone the same impressions or it's only me? Thank you.

Regards,
J

[Seafireliv]

Both planes use a different way of flying and tactics. You WILL find it harder if you try flying a 109 in the same way you fly your usual Spit. I also advise adjusting parameters of a plane your unused to as unwise. Learn it first.

[Jethro]

Sorry, I did not explain myself well enough evidently: my remarks are not all based on my own problems, I simply noticed that killing a Spitfire in a 109 is way too much tougher than the opposite IMHO, and that AI first shows such difficulties.
Usually I fly the Emil in a different way than a Spit and get my kills after all, just wondering if everything is right...

Thanks for your answer however...

Regards
J

[killerwatt]

Sorry, I did not explain myself well enough evidently: my remarks are not all based on my own problems, I simply noticed that killing a Spitfire in a 109 is way too much tougher than the opposite IMHO, and that IA first shows such difficulties.
Usually I fly the Emil in a different way than a Spit and get my kills after all, just wondering if everything is right...

Thanks for your answer however...

Regards
J

Jethroe, I would be interested in what realism settings you are using here. What target size, bullet drag etc. also morale settings will affect the way the ai flies and fights as well. I fly the spit almost exclusively but I would never say that victory is almost assured when going up against 109s.

[Buddye]

Hi Jethro,

I have just a few comments on this subject. The AI maneuvers are of course exactly the same for all AI A/C (when performing a maneuver the code is the same).

The AI selection process (which we have not changed) is based mostly on the accepted strengths and weaknesses of the A/C and the selection process is different for each AI A/C type (RAF A/C may favor turning fights German fighters may favor vertical fights). The selection is also based on AI skill level (so always select hero in each mission for the toughest fight).

Over time users will become knowledgeable of the tendency of the AI A/C maneuvers although the selection is rather random for both aggressive and defensive maneuvers. This will make killing them a bit easier but I think that is real life also for a pilot. When you understand the enemy (both human and machine) the killing is easier.

Yes, I could make the AI so aggressive and shoot so straight that everyone would hate it as the AI would win every time. The key here is to reach a fine balance of acceptance for our customers. Most of which do not have years with BoB.

[Jethro]

Hi KW, my current settings are:

Flight model: realistic
Engine management and prop pitch: auto
Power boost: off
Wind and wind gusts: off
Airframe stress: on
Torque/slipstreaming: on
109 fuel capacity: realistic
Weapons: realistic
collisions: on (friendly off)
Target size: low
Complex AI: on
Skill modifier: maximum
Bullet dispersion and drag: yes

New Spit FM by Ken.

As you said KW, victory is never assured in dogfight, but one on one vs a 109 is simple enough IMHO.

Thanks
J

[Buddye]

Jethro, always select "hero" in each mission under Skill for your AI enemy. The effect in a larger (more enemy) can be deadly.

[Jethro]

Hi Buddye, everything you said is true IMO, yet I see very often that the German AI pilots seem to be "in trouble" with their planes during dogfight and I never feel I'm in danger or pressed to react against them; it's difficult to explain but it appears like that to me.

Thanks
J

[Jethro]

Buddye, yes, forgot to mention that i put always "Hero" as enemy skill...

Thanks
J

[Buddye]

I have often thought of fixing "hero" skill level so that the AI would never miss when he shoots and also improve the AI flight charactertics for our very experienced customers.

It might be good practice but not really fun IMHO. Also I really should be working on stuff that is more useful for our total customer base.

[Rummy]

Stalls, stalls, stalls. If planes stalled energy management would be worth while. At present a well maintained spiral climp in a 109 just gets you shot since your bait never departs from flight. I'm with Jethro on this one.

[Buddye]

Stalls, stalls, stalls. If planes stalled energy management would be worth while. At present a well maintained spiral climp in a 109 just gets you shot since your bait never departs from flight. I'm with Jethro on this one.

Please explain in child like terms so I will understand fully what you are talking about.

You are addressing verticial maneuvrers?

[nealg]

Re: AI and adversary. Just a 2 cent comment.

Last night, continuing a campaign where I fly for 54 squadron, I assigned them to revector to assist in a convoy attack, 87's escorted by 109's. Now, we were outnumbered by a huge margin, but I managed to survive for a few minutes by never holding level. Unfortunately, I was never able to get into a firing position on any 109, and finally was reamed by rounds from at least 2 attackers, one from my 3 o clock, one from my 6.

Earlier, flying a IA one on one ( I almost always fly Spitfire, occasionally Hurricanes ), even using labels, I spent 15 tense minutes trying to stay with the AI 109. Twice I was able to climb with him, yes....but stalled out before i could get a firing solution. At times, I was unable to turn with him due to blacking out...a sign I was not paying attention to my energy in turns, and paying for it. In the One on One, I do come out victorious more often than not, but nearly always with some damage.

Occasionally, I can fly him into the ground....so, yes, the AI does make mistakes, and do sometimes appear to be wrestling with their craft just to stay in flight. Sort of like me.

I too am using Ken's new FM modifications, and my settings match yours exactly. I still find survivng, even in the One on One, against the AI 109 ( and not set on Hero even ) to be a challenge, even after years of flying this sim and many others.

Hehe...I have even been shot down in Turkey Shoot. All too often, embarrassingly enough....

[Seafireliv]

I have often thought of fixing "hero" skill level so that the AI would never miss when he shoots and also improve the AI flight charactertics for our very experienced customers.

It might be good practice but not really fun IMHO. Also I really should be working on stuff that is more useful for our total customer base.

Dunno what setting some are on, but I fly with just about all handhold settings off and I find AI 109s and 110s quite a handfull, personally... See no reason to make it harder.

[Jethro]

Buddye, thanks. My personal feeling is that slightly better AI flight charactertics would be a welcomed feature, while improving too much AI at shooting may be frustrating a lot.
We have many skill levels to work on after all, "Veteran", "Ace" and "Hero" settings give enough space for "fine tuning" IMHO.
Just my two cents.

If I correctly understood what you mean Rummy, I completely agree with you. As we all know, energy management is the focal point in dogfight and a good modelization of stalls is essential.

Nealg, obviously I cannot say that flying against 109s has been a bed of roses, only now that I'm so used to fly the Spit I can beat the AI almost every time, yet having the chance to select a even more challenging AI would be better IMHO, so to justify the existance of two "high end" skill levels like "Ace" and "Hero".

Thank you all for your feedbacks mates.
J