Are Emils sitting ducks?

[killerwatt]

Dunno what setting some are on, but I fly with just about all handhold settings off and I find AI 109s and 110s quite a handfull, personally... See no reason to make it harder.

I have to agree with this.

[Rummy]

Stalls, stalls, stalls. If planes stalled energy management would be worth while. At present a well maintained spiral climp in a 109 just gets you shot since your bait never departs from flight. I'm with Jethro on this one.

Please explain in child like terms so I will understand fully what you are talking about.

You are addressing verticial maneuvrers?

Hi Buddye, I tend to just throw these out from time to time . I'll explain a bit more. First, this issue effects all planes, but to me is most visible in the 109 or from the seat of it. I can not properly energy fight in a 109, in that I can not do my best to retain any energy advantage I come into a fight having because the AI will just force his plane through manuvers or put his plane in unrealistic attitudes. Instead of being able to power up and away when I know the other guy is low on energy I have to watch as he some how finds the E to put up a fight. I attribute it to a lack of stalls, since your more prone to these when low on energy. The ai rides his way through the buffeting much better than I can.

I should clarify that I don't think the skill levels are off just that the 109 being an energy fighter has a hard time keeping this edge.

[Jethro]

My impression is that the Spit is never low on energy during a dogfight; on the contrary the 109 suffers continuous buffeting and looses energy far more easily. Impressive looking 109 AI simply trying to fly sometimes.

Regards
J

[Bader]

Hehe...I have even been shot down in Turkey Shoot. All too often, embarrassingly enough....

You are not alone.

And I have never felt that I was cheated. Merely that I acquitted myself badly.

[Jethro]

Had been peppered many times even in turkey shot, but now only a Spitfire (AI Spitfire pilots are really superb) can have me for breakfast in a single encounter: 109s and Hurricanes seem to have big problems just to fly straight... believe me, today in a "one on one" dogfight, the "Hero" AI Hurricane pilot flied like he was completely drunk (myself had my last beer yesterday and don't use any drugs - except BoB - so I'm sure I had no hallucinations...) and 109 are only a little better.

Anyone had the same experience?

Regards
J

[A.Fokker]

Had been peppered many times even in turkey shot, but now only a Spitfire (AI Spitfire pilots are really superb) can have me for breakfast in a single encounter: 109s and Hurricanes seem to have big problems just to fly straight... believe me, today in a "one on one" dogfight, the "Hero" AI Hurricane pilot flied like he was completely drunk (myself had my last beer yesterday and don't use any drugs - except BoB - so I'm sure I had no hallucinations...) and 109 are only a little better.

Anyone had the same experience?

Regards
J

Yes, I have. Somehow with the AI 109 and the AI hurricane E seems to "disappear". I feel it happens when switching from one AI manoeuvre to another, but I cannot be sure. I just know what I see does not obey the laws of physics. This seemingly instable E state of the AI is the one thing in the game that throws the immersion for me a bit.

[Buddye]

Jethro,

If I upload a move code test EXE are you willing to spend some time trying to get me a cam file to look at? (or at least more data).

What you are saying in words really makes no sense to me. The AI excution code (not selection) has no idea what A/C it is dealing with.

[Jethro]

Ok Buddye, thanks, may I send you some cam files? I'll spend some time testing this evening, so tomorrow you can have some.

What I try to explain is not straightforward and I'm not sure a solution is possible, my impression is that AI has some problems "managing" his aircrafts (Hurricanes and 109s loose energy very easily) so being not able to perform aggressive combat manoeuvres.
Moreover, many times during a dogfight my adversary simply "looses his interest" in the fight and starts "flying around" slowly, becoming a sitting duck. My impression is that this is not a "bingo fuel chaps, lets go home" situation; they don't perform a disengage manoeuvre, they simply start flying about "vaguely".

It seems that AI Spitfires are not affected, they fly very well and can do any monoeuvres easily fighting aggressively. Spitfire FM is very permissive IMHO: you can do almost everything without loosing energy; I'm not censuring its behaviours because I never flew a real Spitfire, I only noticed that its FM permits me to do quite everything without loosing much energy and height.

Thank you
J

[BM357_TinMan]

yes, flying the 109 in a d/f is very difficult

On the same settings, I win the d/f 9 times out of ten when I am flying a spit or hurri.

I win MAYBE 1 time out of 10 when I fly a 109.

[ricnunes]

I concur with Jethro's (and others) observations on the Me-109 behaviour while in dogfight and I also observed the exact same issues that Jethro's observed.
I guess the best way to test these observations is by doing "Random Advantage Dogfights" with the exact same number of aircraft for both sides (for example 4x3 Spitfires against 3x4 Me-109s) and with the exact same skill for both sides. Also a good idea is that you (the player) should try (in some tests) to avoid engaging the enemy and run away from the fight (let the AI's fight with each other). Well I did these tests (both side had "ACE" skill) and I notice the same as Jethro, the Spitfires will aways win. I noticed that after such a dogfight the result trends to be very similar with my flight of Spits shooting down 4 to 5 enemy Me-109s while the enemy flight of Me-109s usually shoots down only 1 Spitfire (and when it can, I seen times where NO Spitfires's were shoot down) and the Best result for the flight of Me-109 never surpassed 2 Spitfires shot down.

Even when replacing the Spitfires with Hurricanes the result is still very similar (althrough with a slightly smaller Kill/Loss ratio).

I also noticed that (I don't know if it's related to the manouvering issue mentioned before) but the Me-109s rarelly execute deflection shots while it's very common to see a Spit doing this.

Ok that the Spitfire should be more manouverable than the Me-109 but nevertheless the Me-109 was a very dangerous (and also very manouverable) opponent, so I think this issue should definitly being looked at.
I trend to agree with Jethro that there may be a manouvering (maybe stall/energy bleed issues) with the Me-109s since I also observed that the Me-109s seem to be more concerned with maintaining the aircraft in the air than by fighting the enemy while the opposite happens with Spit (or even the Hurricane).
Well, my observations let me to conclude that from the three "main fighters" (the Spitfire, Hurricane and Me-109) the worse "performer" in combat (dogfight) of all three is the the Me-109.

These observation have little to do with the player's experiences (me in this case) while flight any of this aircraft, this is more an AI versus AI observation. But even so I have the impression that the Me-109 (at least when I'm flying it) seems to have a quite slow acceleration, anyone noticed this?

Finally here are my dificulty settings:

Flight model: realistic
Engine management and prop pitch: auto
Power boost: off
Wind effects: on
Wind gusts: off
Airframe stress: on
Torque/slipstreaming: on
109 fuel capacity: realistic
Weapons: realistic
collisions: on (friendly off)
Target size: medium (I guess)
Complex AI: on
Bullet dispersion and drag: yes

[Jethro]

Thanks A.Fokker, BM_357 and Ricnunes, I was starting to believe I was the only one seeing this.

IMHO the best way to see how a "Hero" AI 109 (or Hurricane) performs in dogfight would be "one on one" instant action, so to watch exactly how it manoeuvres, because I fear that in bigger encounters a simplified AI (please developers, confirm if is it true...) may be used for some of the other planes present in combat. I'd recommend that wind and wind gusts are set to "off" as well.

I think that the simplified AI that manages many planes at once is behind my possibilities to test, so don't know whether I should bother with it or not (unless Buddye tells me how to do it).

This is what I'd suggest for the settings for anyone interested in some "one on one" tests: any advice or comments are welcomed of course.

Flight model: realistic
Engine management and prop pitch: auto
Power boost: off
Wind and wind gusts: off
Airframe stress: on
Torque/slipstreaming: on
109 fuel capacity: realistic
Weapons: realistic
collisions: on (friendly off)
Target size: low
Complex AI: on
Skill modifier: maximum
Bullet dispersion and drag: yes
AI skill: Hero
New SpitfireIA&B FM by Ken.

I'll start taking some cam files and sending them to Buddye (thank you sir!...) who offered himself to investigate.

Best
J

[Buddye]

Ric and Jethro,

I hear what you are saying but it makes no sense from a coding point of view. The AI execution code does not check for A/C type. The AI maneuvre secection code does check for A/C type but it has not been changed (as we want to hold on to the Rowan baseline). If the selection process gives an advantage to the Spit that is not too surprising, however.

Use this EXE to gather your data either video or other wise so I can know the MoveCodes. This has changed a bit:
1. The first is the MoveCode (like followwp, or autocombat)
2. The second is the Manuvre

I can not look into this with just observations as I would never be able to understand the issue. I need the exact maneuvre/transition/maneuvre or a video where I can see the Maneuvres change.

http://www.shockwaveproductions.com/bob ... Codes1.rar

IMPORTANT: Please set the following before starting: MULTI_SKIN_MODE=DISABLE

[Jethro]

Another question to developers, is 1050 hp the right value for the Bf 109E-4 powerplant?
I read that the E-3s received 1100 hp capable engines and E-4s had the same (and 1175 eventually).
I ask because 990 hp for Spitfire and Hurricane matches the values reported by many sources for the Merlin II engine; this made me think that in the FMs of BoB were put the nominal values at take off.

Thanks
J

[Buddye]

IMHO the best way to see how a "Hero" AI 109 (or Hurricane) performs in dogfight would be "one on one" instant action, so to watch exactly how it manoeuvres, because I fear that in bigger encounters a simplified AI (please developers, confirm if is it true...) may be used for some of the other planes present in combat. I'd recommend that wind and wind gusts are set to "off" as well.
J

Yes, I agree 0ne-on-one is the best. When watching the AI do not (repeat "do not") use padlock as its view is not reliable and will confuse the view of the AI.

Jethro, do not worry about the engines right now. They have not change in forever so we need to focus on the current code, I think.

Also for all you experienced pilots the setting for G EFFECTS=ON should be used to buffer your turning ability so the fight is realistics.

[Jethro]

Hi Buddye, thanks for your feedback.
I fear I don't understand very well: you said AI doesn't check for AC type, so doesn't use FM values? It doesn't make sense for me.

Thanks
J