Dud rounds

[spinner]

Hello all,

First post, though I've been flying BoB since - er, since it was Mig Alley. Sorry folks, don't know much about this 'posting' business. Anyway, not to denigrate in any way the astounding BDG work on this, the numero uno combat sim (and Buddye I've read your explanation of dispersion, and believe it) - but I keep getting belts of blanks since hotfix 2! Honest! I've set dispersion at 250 even, sat so close to a Dornier I can see the cockpit up through the rear gunner's cupola glazing, and missed six seconds of hosing. . .then retreated to convergence range and used up the other 6 seconds, not a solitary hit. Then next sortie I down 3 109s at range and turning hard with loads of deflection.

I suspect the girls making the munitions. But seriously, what's going on?

Spinner

[Buddye]

Hi Spinner, thanks for taking the time to post. Sad your first post has to be this strange problem. Anyway, a big wecome to BOBII and the BOBII community.

I do not have a clue as yet but I am working on it. I just need some help from the community on this one. One of the Beta Testers has found it only happens with Bomber stragglers (those that break formation and fall back which was new for Hot Fix #2). It also mostly seem to happen in the campaign.

I hate to do anything until I undersatnd what this is.

Were your stragglers? Were you in the campaign? Any other clues or information for me would be a big help.

If you have a consistent failing test case keep it for me.

I think the bullets are OK. I think it is a SAG A/C that the player should not be seeing. So a bullet proof A/C is being seen and attack by the player. SAG's are an invention of Rowan that permit the massive number of A/C in BOBII without kill your PC. SAG are a rather complex part of BOBII and exist in two states (1) expanded (like a normal A/C in say IA) and (2) contracted (very low low and no damage, guns or bombs, the player should not be able to see the contracted unless he uses a trick like pause and roving camra.

[spinner]

Thanks for the welcome Buddye. Yup, the Dornier was a straggler. I'm afraid I can't remember all the others but I remember for sure one H111 that was still in formation. All in SPC, and honestly I'm not convinced it's just bombers. I'll be careful to recall details to pass on, but how do I 'keep a test case'? There must be a file, a logfile or something? I'm afraid I don't know how to talk to computers, only how to wrestle 'em.

There's a related issue to dispersion I've always wondered about - target size Low, Medium, High - which one corresponds best to target size real? I guess it's Low, but was never quite sure.

Spinner.

[Buddye]

Ok thanks, at least we know it was for you the campaign and it was a straggler (but that may not be all the problem, SAG's can be fighters as well as bombers).

If you get a mission that fails alot (mostly fails or fail each time [super]) just save your mission (savegame file) and give it a name (like test1 or something).

BTW, I need good BOBII community players to understand, define and fix this bug and not PC experts.

It is a bit hard for me focus right now and for the next few days as I need to worry about Hurricane Ike:

[Redtail]

Hello Buddye and Spinner,
Just to add to what you have already said, I have found a similar prob in Historic mission mode. Flying in the 'Shorts Factory' op I have been ingaging with 110's and appear to have the same problem. I have set the dispersion at 150 as per one of your testers, but dont appear to be hitting anything. I have also noticed the straggler problem on the same op.I havent as yet tried via 74 Sq. in my saved Campaign. I will try this and observe and let you knowin the next few days.
Buddye I hope all goes well and you are left intact. Will await an update on Ike.

[andqui]

same here-

but mine weren't all during campaign. Now I think I'm not too bad of a shot, but it's always a possibility of me missing--

For me it's happened four times. I don't see how i could have missed. It's only happened on Stuka's and 110's-

1. Historic mission, the Eagle Day one. I was the spitfires going head on against the Ju-88s. There was one Bf-110 that i shot at repeatedly that i just could not hit. I didn't look at the replay, but the tracers seemed to go right through him.

2. Training mission, low level attack as the spitfires- same problem as above. But then afterwards, i tried it again and shot two down.

3. Campaign- July 14 near Dover, flying a Hurricane. Attacked a straggler Stuka from straight astern, no deflection, and missed after six seconds of shooting with the pipper right on the target.

4.Campaign- July 18 near Dover, flying a Hurricane. Shot at a Bf-110 from six level, close range no deflection with almost all my ammo, no result. My wingman then promptly blew him out of the air, so that one might have been my shooting.

[rhinomonkey]

Hi there, When i had the dud bullets effect i was in a hurricane and was trying to shoot down a 109. it was part of a group of 109s flying home he broke off when one of my squad mates shot at him. i followed but despite using two or three re-loads of ammo not one bullet hit him and at times i was only about 15 yards away from him. It was part of a single payler campaign. just thought i would post this in case it helps you isolate the problem.

[PutCashIn]

Have any Luftwaffe players had problems?

For example, stafing ground targets? bombers mg's?

Or is it only the British girls that are huffing too much turps behind the lathe?

[Buddye]

For all those ready and willing to roll up your sleves and help me, please do the following for me:

Set in the Bdg.txt the following:

Bullet_Dispersion=OFF
Do_You_Want_Flak_And_AAA_Fire=OFF

I want to try and elimite most of the key new stuff in Hot Fix # 2 by turning it off.

Now, play the game and try reproduce the bullet proof A/C problem for me. Please be sure (as best you can) your are correct before reporting back on this thread.

[musk]

It is a bit hard for me focus right now and for the next few days as I need to worry about Hurricane Ike:

I'll bet you're keeping a close eye on that monster--Ike looks mighty angry. I cringe for all of you down there on the Gulf.

[Hylander_1715]

First of all, Buddye, you be careful down there! I hope it turns out for the better.

Guys, I was having the same issue with dud rounds. I have a little routine when I update any games. Either finish a career/campaign first or be willing to toast it and start fresh. But I had the same thing happen after loading up Hotfix #2. I had forgotten to delete my old campaign files from the savegame folder in the BoBII directory. I also delete the autosave.bsr file in there too. The saved campaign files will be any of them with a .bsr ending. Delete them. It doesn't seem to matter if you do this before or after updating the game. But it's always good practice to do it beforehand. Prep the game by cleaning out the old, install the new, and start all over again. It's just better to do it that way. I do the same for SH3 and SH4. Even the graphics and sound mod readme files tell you not to add the mod during a patrol, but to return to base, exit the game, and then add the mod. Or it can cause all kinds of problems.

One other thing I have made it a habit of, is to copy down all my settings in the Options Menu, as I have had to delete the settings.cfg file from the savegame folder on a few occassions. The game will generate a new one when you start the game the next session. If you've copied settings down you can easily set them again in the Options menu. I took screenies of each page, so when I do have to delete it, I can quickly get it set back up again without tryin' to remember what the settings are supposed to befor any game.

Hope this helps! Or if you've already done the above, disreguard this post.

[BattlerBritain]

Buddye - you take care Dooder. High-tail it outta Dodge if you need to - that looks like one mean storm heading your way.

On to this bug - I've seen it in the Campaign. Was engaging a squadron of about 15 He111s and nothing was hitting them. I could see that tracer going into them but no damage. Engaged three of them all with the same effect.

I suspected that the formation may have been a 'ghost' formation - I could see them but they may not have been 'real'. Switched to a formation to the left and immediately started to get hits on one of them.

I've also started to see 'ghost' formations in the 2D campaign view. I can engage a formation in 3D, inflict losses on them, and when I exit out of the fight back to 2D the engaged formation stays there and doesn't move. It can stay there for hours, days even, until another formation of mine stumbles over them, at which point they come back to life. A bit like a Campaign 'mine'.

For example, engaged a Do17 recon plane, shot him down but on going back to the 2D Campaign the formation of 1 aircraft is still there and stays in the same place until later that day a formation intercepted him again instead of going for a formation I wanted them to engage.

Also noticed that the EPI is still showing a red vector to the enemy even though he's going down in flames and the crew have bailed out.

I may have Campaign saves of these. Will attempt to find them and load them up. Would that help Buddye?

Cheers,

Battler

[Jethro]

Hi BB, I had the same issue twice in my last campaign.

"For example, engaged a Do17 recon plane, shot him down but on going back to the 2D Campaign the formation of 1 aircraft is still there and stays in the same place until later that day a formation intercepted him again instead of going for a formation I wanted them to engage.

Also noticed that the EPI is still showing a red vector to the enemy even though he's going down in flames and the crew have bailed out."

I solved that issue by waiting for the Do-17 to crash to the ground. No probs on the 2D map this way.

About the red diamond still showing when your target is going down, there is a bdg.txt parameter about it: don't remember exactly, but it is something about padlock and death "death breakes padlock = OFF or ON".

You can set it so to break padlock when your target is "dead", or hit esc key in order to exit padlock.

Regards,
J

[spinner]

Well, I flew five missions (historic, raid on Portsmouth, to get lots of bombers) with dispersion ON, and found the bug in four of them. It was difficult to be conclusive, as I kept getting shot down. . . . Then I discovered "invulnerable to fire" and "unlimited weapons". Wow, I shot down the whole of Luftflotte III single handed! Verdict: with dispersion OFF every bullet seems to count, whereas with dispersion ON, the following happens - if you shoot at a bomber that's already been hit by AI your rounds are ineffective. I used a smoking engine as evidence of previous AI hits. This is true whether it's straggling or still in formation. If you shoot at a bomber that's not been touched yet, your bullets count. However if you RETURN to it after a while, your bullets are now ineffective. I did notice as I hosed one H111 with zero effect, that it registered AI damage still (a few puffs of smoke/debris from another Hurricane or friendly fire).

So I favour this ghost aeroplane/SAG idea. I realise mine was a very small sample, but I then flew eight "lone fighter lone bomber" interceptions, knowing this wouldn't be a ghost/ SAG bomber, and every bullet counted with dispersion ON.

Hope this helps narrow the possibilities down somewhat.

Spinner.

[Buddye]

Thanks Spinner, your results is very simular to the Beta Forum results so far (yes, small sample but progress).

Here is my Theory on the problem:

Buddye’s theory of the Bullet proof A/C.

The player is assigned a target. The game does this so when you turn on Auto Pilot during combat and the player becomes an AI A/C (auto mode), the players A/C knows who to target just like any other AI A/C.

I have to determine the distance from the shooter to the target. I measure the distance from the shooter to it’s assigned target using the shooter’s XYZ (known) and its assigned target’s (ai.unfriendly) XYZ.

A player on manual can go after any target he chooses but his assign target is still there (his assigned ai.unfriendly). The problem is that the distance of the manual player’s XYZ and the player’s assigned target XYZ can become very large if the manual player is off chasing a straggler or some other RTB A/C. He gets very far from his assigned target.

The distance from the shooter to the target is needed for the range factor. Range factor changes the dispersion up/down based on the actual range, if available (if not available 300 meters is used). With a very large range the dispersion became very large and the bullets went almost sideways. The tracers are PS system based so they look OK.

The fix of course was very easy (1) limit the range to weapons range plus 100 meters = 600 meters, and (2) do not use the manual players assigned target.

Most people would not see this in alot of IA missions, if the player stays close to the action, or if the player had no assigned target.

A very dumb error on my part.

I hope my theroy is correct on this one, very frustrating for me on top of the pending Hurricane Ike.

As soon as the Beta Testers have verified that the fix looks good , I will place the link for the fix here so you guys can test it as well.