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To help clarify, as far as I can determine, Russian CAA regulations are almost identical to ours.

SOP of Aeroflot part B (operation of A320):

COLD WEATHER AND FLUID RUNWAY CONTAMINATED OPERATIONS

EXTERIOR INSPECTION
[...]
SURFACES ... CHECKED FREE OF FROST, ICE AND SNOW

All surfaces of the aircraft (critical surfaces: leading edges and upper surfaces of wings, vertical and horizontal stabilizers, all control surfaces, slats and flaps) must be clear of snow, frost and ice, otherwise consider to perform de-/anti-icing. [ They even added this bit to reinforce that de-/anti-icing must be performed in this case ]

Note: Thin hoarfrost is acceptable on the upper surface of the fuselage and pilot can distinguish surface features (lines and markings) beneath it. Frost is acceptable on the underside of the wing tank area, a max layer of 3mm.


SOP of Aeroflot part A (General Procedures)

Written wholly in russian, it specifically states that if OAT is 6C and below, person charged with preparing acft for departure must check for hoarfrost or snow/ice deposits on all parts of acft. If found, then he orders de-icing procedure to remove these deposits. If OAT is below 15C, check for fuel frost and order de-icing if fuel frost present.

Just for the record, here is the original:

ИТП АТЦ, ответственный за подготовку ВС к вылету:

- при температуре наружного воздуха +15°С и ниже обязан проверить верхнюю и нижнюю поверхности крыла в районе расходных секций топливных баков на предмет отсутствия топливного льда (особенно при подготовке ВС к вылету при кратковременной стоянке после выполнения полета);

- при температуре наружного воздуха от +6°С и ниже, обязан проверить
отсутствие инея и снежно-ледяных отложений на всей поверхности самолета;

- при обнаружении инея или снежно-ледяных отложений на поверхности
самолета ИТП ответственный за подготовку ВС к вылету принимает
меры по их удалению, для чего заказывает спецмашину для проведения
процедуры удаления обледенения;

- по прибытию на ВС экипажа, ИТП докладывает КВС о результате
осмотра поверхностей самолета и о необходимости выполнения ПОО.

Obviously they're just not following their own procedures and seem to take no action when the rules are broken.
What amazed me about this, was firstly they took off in that condition and secondly they got away with it, illegal yes but dangerous....probably but not definitely !

Here's another one from an Aeroflot pilot who claims this is considered acceptable and he states that he departs the stand with this level of snow on the wings and if it hasn't blown off by the time he reaches the de-icing area, then he'll stop and de-ice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Om4pk#t=0s

I can't see any snow on that one by rotate and personally think that's probably ok. If they waited until completely clean most of the fleet would probably be grounded during the winter.But they should have amended the rules to take account of those conditions. By just blindly copying our rules they're left in an impossible situation.



Hi Bud, I've now played it a couple of times on full volume and not heard it. You must have better hearing than me. Are you sure it wasn't your own microwave?

Perhaps you could use your exceptional hearing on the second video and then you or somebody explain why I can hear "v1" and "rotate" from that camera position.

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POTR
"Only birds and fools fly and even the birds don't fly at night"

Even at that, the "ding" doesn't necessarily mean that the signs turned off. They could have been forced on (switching from "AUTO" to "ON" will cause the ding), the No Smoking sign uses the same ding, and if someone hits the FA Page overhead, it uses the same ding. Additionally, some Airbuses, when a lav door becomes unlatched when the seatbelt signs are on will cause a ding as well, but that appears to be a customer option as I've heard it onboard Frontier, but not onboard United.

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Come on Cappy - Have a glass of scotch, relax a bit, and just enjoy a little humor


Cheers!

Bud

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Buddy Morgan



i5 2500k - Asus P8P67 Pro - G.Skill Ripjaw 8GB - EVGA GTX 570 Fermi

Perhaps after that takeoff the skipper switched to allow everyone to smoke...including himself

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POTR
"Only birds and fools fly and even the birds don't fly at night"

Like I said things happen a little differently in the north. While the rules are followed, just not followed to the point. And don't think the athorities dont know because they do. They just kinda close one eye and look away a bit. Check the video again, two sections of the wing were cleared and checked for ice. A big section of the leading edge area, and a large section of the aileron. No ice found. And as for the Russian rules there is a fancy word there...

All surfaces of the aircraft (critical surfaces: leading edges and upper surfaces of wings, vertical and horizontal stabilizers, all control surfaces, slats and flaps) must be clear of snow, frost and ice, otherwise consider to perform de-/anti-icing.

Looks like they checked the critical surfaces and then considered the snow and decided it'll blow off. And hey it blew off before rotation! Perfect example of the Northern way!

Oh and as for the FAA's rules
3-2238. GENERAL. The current regulations in Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) parts 121, 125, and 135 are based on the “clean aircraft” concept. These regulations prohibit a takeoff with frost, ice, or snow (contamination) adhering to the wings, control surfaces, or propellers of an airplane. Sections 121.629, 125.221, and 135.227 require that each part 121/135 operator that conducts operations under conditions that may produce frost, snow, or ice accumulation must have one or both of the following:

· An approved aircraft deicing program
· An inspection program that ensures that aircraft are free of any accumulation of frost/ice/snow before takeoff

The loophole word is adhering. Look the word up. That snow could not be adhering to the wing, it blew off. Plus they could argue it wasn't adhering to the wing, they cleared off two big sections with a...........

Again Northern way. Two loop holes make it legal barely.

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The Canadians do it Northern Style too?

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1)i7 980x 4.35 ghz, gtx 470s SLI, Matrox th2go, Creative x-fi
2)i7 2600k, Gigabyte z68x, gtx 285s sli

As English English is my first language, I don't need to look up "adhering".I also don't need to look up takeoff. If contaminants are present before the takeoff roll, then how can you determine whether or not they are adhering? It's only after takeoff that they found out ! You see the problem ? I'm also not blind and like Cappie, can clearly see contaminant ADHERING right to the end of the video.
I don't particularly wish to discuss semantics about the rules as Russian is not even my second language and FAA rules have nothing to do with this instance.
You think "barely legal", i think illegal, so we'll have to agree to disagree and i'll revise my winter travel plans to Canook land

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POTR
"Only birds and fools fly and even the birds don't fly at night"

Mission accomplished . No seriously, I'll agree we disagree. The important thing for is Aeroflot is backing it's pilots. I'm hoping that this starts a precedent of backing their pilots despite public opinions.

Juicy, yes we do, depending on location. But it's not just us, just look in Alaska, Russia, Africa, Australia, Antarctica, Asia, Europe.

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I've lifted this and am posting here because this pilot based in Frankfurt doesn't pull his punches and his reply to a Seminole pilot both amused and informed me As an interesting point, 99% of professional pilots on that forum agree that there is no room for debate on the"clean wing" policy.
This guy just expresses himself more strongly than some


And this is his reply to a post from a flight attendant;


and his reply to another pilot


I for one won't argue with him

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POTR
"Only birds and fools fly and even the birds don't fly at night"

My old man was on a business trip the day that Palm 90 went down because of icing. He called that night from the hotel and said that he had just driven over the same bridge about a half hour before. The mechanics of that catastrophe has always sort of interested me over the years. But every time I see the 'Seconds from Disaster' episode and they show the footage of the people clinging to the tail, or the squashed cars, I am swiftly reminded that it isn't just the 'science' or the academics of it all: this kind of sloppiness has very human consequences that can sometimes get lost in the discussion of P2 probes or the proper de-icing mixture, or in our case here, playing lawyers and parsing the legaleze of the regulations. You can have 50 planes take off in a row without incident, but it only takes the one that botches it to demonstrate what is wrong with this...that Aeroflot were 'technically' in compliance with the regs only has meaning until something goes awry, then it doesn't matter so much anymore to anyone but the attorneys.

So There!!! That's my 2 cents!

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1)i7 980x 4.35 ghz, gtx 470s SLI, Matrox th2go, Creative x-fi
2)i7 2600k, Gigabyte z68x, gtx 285s sli

OUTCOME OF THE STORY, posted 3/6

Russian CAA finally acted upon this incident. They ordered Aeroflot to conduct investigation. Aeroflot swiftly assembled committee and on 28'th of May concluded:

1. There was indeed a violation of Aeroflot SOP (crew and ground personnel made a wrong decision not to conduct de/anti-icing of aircraft after overnight stay with snow precipitation)

2. Amendments were made to Aeroflot SOP regarding de/anti-icing procedures.

3. Captain of the flight was demoted to First Officer.

4. Other personnel received various disciplinary sanctions.

Link to Russian site with quotes from pilots in English at bottom of page;
http://snowafl.ru/

Interesting snippet from reading all this; many Aeroflot aircraft are registered in Bermuda !

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POTR
"Only birds and fools fly and even the birds don't fly at night"

The Bermuda registration's nothing new. They lease many of their non-Russian built aircraft and because of various issues (many political) the aircraft are left on "short term" lease with the registration in the lessor's home country (i.e. Bermuda) even though effectively the aircraft are permanently part of the fleet. It's actually more common in the aviation world than many people think, it's just not usually something you see a flag carrier doing.

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We have laws here in Canada too which prohibits taking off in an aircraft with contamination. This said... I have known a few bush pilots who've bent the rules here and there...

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The plane took off ok and I don't see what the issue is? Mig-21 on Batajnica airport I visited took off with 2 cm of clear ice on the wings. The only part which was cleaned (de-iced) was the canopy. That on the bus wasn't even ice, it was snow.

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Владимир Левков/Vladimir Levkov

Aviation is proof that,given the will,we have the capacity to achieve the impossible

You have a keen sense of humor.

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1)i7 980x 4.35 ghz, gtx 470s SLI, Matrox th2go, Creative x-fi
2)i7 2600k, Gigabyte z68x, gtx 285s sli