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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:54 pm 
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No, it's about the knee-jerk reaction that is happening more and more in Europe that is centered around having no individual responsibility. It's never the person's fault for doing something stupid. It's the fault of someone else for not protecting them from doing that stupid thing.

Human-oriented means that people are responsible for their own actions and well being. What you see in Europe is removing all of that.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:58 pm 
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Hahahaha! What's next? Are ya gonna tell me I hate women too??? Hahahahahaha!! Or lemme guess, I MUST be racist! [heavy sarcasm]

If you'll read my responses regarding the topic, my central theme's are:

1) advocating using reason vs knee jerk reactions in decision making processes

2) not blaming something/someone where blame is not likely due

It's only as hard to grasp as you make it.

Cheers!

Bud

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:01 pm 
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Although I can see both side of the discussion regarding the Norwegian C-130's, after thought I find I agree more with Bud and Cap.

I strongly agree with the comments on nanny-ism. It is so out of control that it makes you wonder how our parents and grandparents could've possibly survived long enough to reproduce! While much of this can be attributed to politics (another discussion), I feel a large part is due to the current culture of frivolous lawsuits for anything and everything. People see it as an easy buck, so companies and governments are forced to have restrictions and laws and stupid warning labels (* do not use product while sleeping!) to prevent costly litigation. Hence part of the nanny state.

Joe

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:12 am 
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budmorgan wrote:
Hahahaha! What's next? Are ya gonna tell me I hate women too??? Hahahahahaha!! Or lemme guess, I MUST be racist! [heavy sarcasm]

Bud


Please continue, you're doing well so far...

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:18 am 
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Fleet-wide grounding is SOP in military, until mechanical failure can be ruled out - not only in Europe, but in US too. Remember what happened when the F-15C broke in two mid-flight ? The only Eagles flying were in Saudi Arabia.
Same with the B-2 crash, and few others.

As to CFIT, as the only scenario when a plane crashes into a mountain... just two examples:
- Mt. Fugi - Speedbird 911 in 1966 (in-flight breakup of B707);
- Mt. Osutaka - Flight 123 in 1985 (structural and hydraulic failure of B747).

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:18 am 
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Sundowner wrote:
Fleet-wide grounding is SOP in military, until mechanical failure can be ruled out - not only in Europe, but in US too. Remember what happened when the F-15C broke in two mid-flight ? The only Eagles flying were in Saudi Arabia.
Same with the B-2 crash, and few others.


Wrong. Both incidents were almost immediately ruled to be mechanical related (although not sure what mechanical exactly) and thus the grounding. When a C-5 crashed on approach to Charleston during a practice approach, the entire C-5 fleet wasn't grounded, nor was the F-16 fleet grounded when one F-16 ran off the end of the runway at Oshkosh during AirVenture. There WAS a 24 hour safety stand-down in these cases, but it was not a grounding.

Quote:
As to CFIT, as the only scenario when a plane crashes into a mountain... just two examples:
- Mt. Fugi - Speedbird 911 in 1966 (in-flight breakup of B707);
- Mt. Osutaka - Flight 123 in 1985 (structural and hydraulic failure of B747).


BAW911 was not CFIT and was not a crash into a mountainside. It "crashed" in mid-air and the debris rained down on the mountain. JAL123 was kinda odd. It was and wasn't CFIT. The official ruling was that it was still CFIT, but it was extreme circumstances. The aircraft technically was controllable to an extent as it'd been flying with some control for over half an hour prior to impact. Not saying that the crash was unavoidable, but CFIT says that you have control, and they did to an extent.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:05 am 
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bigjuicyspider wrote:
Please continue, you're doing well so far...


No. You've had your "fair share".

Cheers!

Bud

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:47 pm 
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Budmorgan, now I follow your analogy a bit better, hehe.

I partly agree with that some of the European countries overprotect their people and that have made persons less good in thinking and taking responsibillity for their own acitions. But I will include also part of USA their also. Look at an american contract for example(contracts for most topics), almost everything which can happen is included in the contract, and in my opinion so is also that overprotecting. And the funny is, that most americans are eruopeans from the beginning, at least nearly all 'white' americans. And it is a bit sad how this thread turned out to be a thread about if it was right or wrong to ground 3 aircrafts for some few weeks. And I am pretty sure that the brothers and sisters and mothers and fathers of them who died, they do not care anything if this three aircrafts is flying or not. So there is many perspective on this matter.

P.s Capflyer, my explain of the majorities opinion of the military was just to show the differens. And yes, many here would have apploud if the military was totaly 'grounded'. That is a fact, personally I have another opinion(which I have not expressed in this thread as you can see). It is also a fact that the military get less money from the goverment now days than when the 'coldwar' was running. My opinion is that if we not look after what happen so is the history just repeating it self, as it usually does cause humans seems to have difficult to learn from the past. It seems like every generation have to learn by making the same misstakes as their parents did. Norway are today not threaten by any other country so yes we could remove the whole millitary and use that money on other things. But, there is a big but. Before the second world war so was not Norway(or any other european state), military threatten by another state, and everyone was sure that nothing so stupid as the first world war should happen again was the common opinion. Then we all know what happen(Hitler came in controle of Germany and started what was never going to happen again). So today we repeat the history by minimice the military, hopefully so will it never come a new Hitler, but we can never be sure. Just look at what happen in Norway last summer, where one man could place a 940 kilo heavy bomb outside the goverment building, and there after drive some few kilometers and shoot 69 youngsters to dead. The police were there accused why they did not fly out some police officers to scen. But the Norwegian police could not do that. Cause the Norwegian police, only have one helicopter, and that is equiped with stuff for watching traffic and such stuff, so they can not use it to transport persons.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:04 pm 
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Please, dont let this thread become a thread about who is 'best', americans or europeans. There is for sure some different culture behavior, but no one is better than the other. And the differense is only in general terms, when we brake it down to what a human culture is build of, single individuals so is it another story. And remember that the majority of the persons who have controling positions in USA are white persons and they came originaly from north western european countries.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:44 pm 
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Right on brother Wiqvist -

I'll state again that I could care less what country this occurred in, what country the aircraft came from, how long the fleet is grounded, how many are in the fleet, etc. ALL of those things are not related to the accident or the subsequent actions taken by the authorities.

I'm only interested in two things:

1) The decision making process (i.e. using critical thinking and reason vs. the use of knee jerk reactions) and;

2) Placing blame where blame is due.

That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. This is not a patriotic issue for one side or the other.

Cheers!

Bud

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:13 pm 
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budmorgan wrote:

I'm only interested in two things:

1) The decision making process (i.e. using critical thinking and reason vs. the use of knee jerk reactions) and;

2) Placing blame where blame is due.


Bud


So waiting a couple of days until they can at least read the FDR and CVR is somehow ridiculous? Assuming it is pilot error, and likely nothing to do with the aircraft, don't you think they might want to at least fully understand exactly what kind of decision making took place on that flight deck? By all means, place 'blame where it is due' but in order to correctly place that blame, they have decided that they will need a little more information. What is so knee-jerk about that? What if there is a training issue or a policy that needs to be changed? You keep talking about "Critical Thinking". In my view of the world, the avoidance of unnescessary risk is a fine example of the critical thinking you claim to champion. Since the grounding of those aircraft is obviously of little consequence to the short term mission requirements of the RNoAF, it is the most logical thing to do. What are you afraid of budmorgan, that the Red Horde is going to take over, or something?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:20 pm 
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You really don't have a damned clue what happens outside your ego and backyard, do you CAP? You define "Health and Safety" as being "nannyism" and "removing the responsibility of the individual".

Here's a little bit of clue for you. "Health and Safety" doesn't make it anyone else's fault if I step in front of a train doing 125mph on an open line. What "Health and Safety" does is puts a lookout up the track to warn me that a train is coming while I am concentrating on my work task. If I ignore the warning and don't move to a position of safety, that's not the lookout's fault or the procedures' fault, it's mine. It's got nothing to do with removing responsibility from the individual and everything to do with trying to prevent accidents we already know about how to avoid, because someone decides it would be cheaper and/or quicker to run the risk of it happening (almost always to someone other than themselves). The fact that legislation is sometimes misused and abused by lawyers trying to shift blame onto someone else is very definitely true, I agree entirely, which brings me nicely onto your next error.

Your next incorrect statement is about BAW having to ground Concorde because the type certificate was rescinded. Were you paying attention to events, you would be aware that British Airways was operating at a very large loss at the time, wanted to shut down Concorde operations but knew that it would be a PR disaster to do so. Virgin Atlantic had already offered money for all British Airways' Concorde fleet and had put forward a plan that would, in theory, operate them at a profit. British Airways were instrumental in getting the type certificate revoked, to prevent them being painted red and flying again in any form, because it would be proof that the fleet's mounting losses were due to BA's management and not the aircraft themselves. Again, it had nothing to do with an engineering decision, it was purely to do with politics and money. This is why the Concorde fleet engineers up to a very high level of management are still campaigning to get one returned to the air for display purposes and offering their services to get it there. Do you know any Concorde engineers? I've spent quite a lot of time talking to one and reading what others have written and said.

In the case of these three aircraft, nothing at all has been lost by their grounding. Again, you fail to understand that when you don't work for the US military, apparently the world's largest employer (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17429786) then budgets for militaries ARE tight and that limiting flying hours is often done to balance the books, therefore the savings in fuel and maintanance, as well as flight pay for the crews, which some EU countries still pay, and other costs can be significant. That's a political rather than engineering decision again, but it'll be more fuel to the argument in favour of not flying aircraft until the cause of the accident is known. I don't, for the record, know whether the RNAF pay extra on days when aircraft fly so that particular component may not be an issue.

Knowing and working with a lot of people who live around the world, I get to see and hear a lot of different methods of operation. The Japanese and Scandanavians are very risk averse and it means that their planning and response to an emergency is different from that of the UK, US or similar countries. Not "wrong", not "right", just different, as has already been said. There are plusses and minuses to it wherever on the scale any particular people are and that people's actions, again anywhere on that scale, can result in apparently unnecessary results up to and including death. Doing nothing and over-reacting can both have catastrophic consequences. There is still a massive difference between saying "that's not how I'd do it" and saying "what they are doing is wrong". I'm promoting the former, what I'm seeing here, from both of you, is the latter.

Ian P.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:45 pm 
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When AF447 crashed AF grounded their entire fleet until a few days later. It is not an over-reaction to the problem. Better to be safe than sorry!!

Best regards,
Robin.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:54 pm 
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VulcanB2 wrote:
When AF447 crashed AF grounded their entire fleet until a few days later. It is not an over-reaction to the problem. Better to be safe than sorry!!

Best regards,
Robin.


I agree. Besides, not to insult or undermine, but the world isn't depending on Norway's C-130's, seeing they're all in Norway right now 8)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:06 pm 
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VulcanB2 wrote:
When AF447 crashed AF grounded their entire fleet until a few days later. It is not an over-reaction to the problem. Better to be safe than sorry!!


Again, the grounding only came because there had been a series of similar incidents (that hadn't previously resulted in a crash however) due to the same system with the same failure chain as what Air France saw in the satellite messages sent. They grounded the fleet that hadn't received the new pitot tubes and the ones that had received the type of tube that was on AF447's aircraft until they could replace all the pitot tubes with the 3rd version that was determined to be the only one suitable.

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