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I also have to reply here as it is simply not true and I do not know from where you get this picture?

I do not know why you think we are allowed to bury our history?
If you mean the decision that the allied invested and forced the rebuilding of germany out of the thought, that only a "strong" germany could be a good ally for the future (cold war was around), what do you think would happen 50 years ago with a complete unsatisfied, occupied, suppressed state in the middle of europe?

Some example that we do not bury our history:

- we built in 2003 a big field as memory for the murdered jews next to the brandenburger tor in Berlin
- in many cities in germany you have so callen "stumbling blocks", cobblestones of golden color with the names engraved which where on the botton of houses where jews where murdered/deported. I recocnize these stones every day and in my opinion this is one of the best ideas to remember about if you stand in front of a door ... walking streets along where nearly in front of every house are such stones ...

- and we had/have in school a very detailed education about this time: to be honest I never learned about Falkland war, Cuba crisis, vietnam, corea etc... simply because we stuck in the 1940 and I did not manged it to get past 1945 in 13 years of school.

- I don't know if its duty, but all school classes visit a concentration camp site: and you could also imagine what kind of impression this is if you are 12, 13 years old. I see it like it was yesterday (instead of more then 20 years ago)

etc etc

It was one of the darkest aeras in mankind and I'm ashamed what happened, feel sorry for every affected familiy and wonder how anybody in the world (especially our neighbours) could be friendly to us (they are!) after whats happen.

But it is definitely not true that we bury this history!!!!



Very sad you haven't enough time/horizon/willingness to have an unblended view on the country you live. Hope your wish will fullfilled then soon ...

sorry, you've posted during my post above...





I'm very interested where you live here in germany???

Every single kid in German schools is taught the history of Nazi Germany, World War II and all the atrocities that were performed back then. It's part of the mandatory syllabus. If you meet anyone who doesn't know what happened back then, then it's not because Germany tries to bury its history, but because the people you talked to are ignorant idiots and possibly middle school dropouts and definitely not representative for the average German. I'll go out on a limb here and assume that you live somewhere in East Germany? In what we call the "Neue Bundesländer", the former GDR? Nazism is a big problem in some areas there, but that's only a very small fraction of the German populace. But of course that can put a real dent in your perception of Germany as a whole, when you are stuck in the middle of dangerous numbnuts like that.

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Happy Landings
- Patrick

"Very sad you haven't enough time/horizon/willingness to have an unblended view on the country you live. Hope your wish will fullfilled then soon ..."

Hi guenseli & Jigsaw,
I've only been here for about 20 years!!! and in the West (BRD) not the DDR...(or even GDR... Where's that?).
I can only say I'm not alone with these problems, the only difference between me and many others I have met with similar problems, is that I have no hate for Germany or the Germans as they had when they left this country.

I will only add that I try not to speak about WW2 here, but when it has become a subject here I havn't met anyone who could better a 5 minus in the subject! seriously...

anyway now I want to finish this subject and go back to flying (yes over VFR Germany too!)

Happy flights

M. Jordan

At any rate: sorry to hear about your bad experience. I apologize on behalf of my demented countrymen.




GDR was the international name of the DDR: German Democratic Republic.

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Happy Landings
- Patrick

Well there is a shift in perception or at least I assume there is. After all the generation that was responsible or involved in WW2 is mostly dead by now or will be soon. Most Germans today weren't alive during WW2.
You said we should feel guilty and ashamed.
Neither me nor my father (!) was alive during WW2. On a personal level I do not feel guilty or ashamed because I was simply not around, it was not my fault. However I feel sorry for the people that were affected and I accept that we Germans have a special responsibility to remember and to not let it happen again.

It is a sad thing that you got threatened by neo-Nazis but rest assure these people are a minority and are not tolerated. For every neo-Nazi march you get a counter-demonstration that usually dwarfs the Nazis. Fascism is certainly not seen as “being German”, it is seen as being a jerk.
I'm sorry that you feel the way you do and that we were apparently failed to make your stay more pleasant.
But to be honest I can't even begin to imagine where you live since I never experienced what you described.

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I put the blame not on the German people but on the German Media as I remember a warm and friendly atmosphere before they stired trouble. I also question how the not only German but World history is taught here. I learned at school also about the struggle within Germany at that time, many Germans did not believe in Hitler or his war, but they couldn't show it otherwise they would be shot, I have also read a letter from such a soldier so I know this is true. This is the kind of thing which should be taught here in Germany too.
What happened should never be forgotten not by this generation or by future generations. Just to give you an idea of how it is forgotten, many young Germans use "Jew" (generaly with a few other words which I will not write here) as an insult, I'm not Jewish but I am alarmed about Germans using these types of insults after what was done to the Jewish people by the Germans.
I wanted to make it clear that despite all of what I've been through and all that my children have also suffered I don't hate Germans or Germany but we don't want to live in this atmosphere here anymore, and this atmosphere started when it was said that Germans shouldn't feel Guilt or shame.......so are they right???

Happy Landings

M. Jordan

M.Jordan,

it is nice that we can have a polite discussion here ...

But I can't simply not accept that you generalize us germany with phrases like "many young germans ...".

As another poster said,of course we have neo nazis (same way they have them in USA, they have them in england, I met in estonia, russia etc etc). But after 20 Years in germany you should have seen the anti-nazi demonstrations!!!

It is a democratic right to demonstrate, so we have no right to refuse a nazi demonstration if they have declared it in an official way. It is sad, but it is democracy. But these are normaly a few hundreds, sometimes a few thousand nazis.
Therefore are normally third as much normal (anti-nazis) people demonstrating against.
A few weeks ago, complete (!) Dresden was sourrounded by a human chain around the city to demonstrate against the nazis!

I can't believe, that this haven't changed your picture the last 20 years?

You haven't still answered my question where you live here in germany ...???


And I do not know anybody who says any insulting things aginst jewish people here ...
I do not say that they do not exist (like in any other country too), but I wonder very much where you met so many rasist people here in germany ???

It's interesting topic, as when you watch different media (pretty much doesn't matter what country) when it comes to Neo-Nazi movements, they all talk about the one in Germany... not the one in France, UK, Poland or... Israel

My perspective might be crooked, but what I see is that socially, Germany was hit bad through the last 70 years, and is continued to be reminded of what happened 4 generations ago on every opportunity without any repercussions. It's as if no one else had genocide in their history.
How it come to the point where every militaristic activity is pretty much banned. The historical reenactment, paintball, or airsoft - are pretty much underground movements. On big airsoft games in Poland, the second largest ethnic group are players from Germany. When there are WW2 themed historical reenactment in Poland - the Russians come in Krasnaja Armija uniforms, Germans magically materialize in US uniforms, and the Poles are in UK, Polish, and... Wehrmacht uniforms. Yet over the border, it's as if those people didn't existed.

Of course when some neighbor tell Germany to "grow a pair" he's getting his whole country jumping over him (I don't like our minister of foreign affairs, but he was right on that occasion).

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Chris Oleksy

Hello Chris, hello neighbour



[s]sorry, I do not understand this sentence ..[/s]
(EDIT: ah, google translation helped ...)
I just can say, that our minister of foreign affairs is a complete idiot
It is really time that we get new elections here ...


What you've said above is indeed true.
It's not that I want to see more germans in german or wehrmacht uniforms at war games but it was not common to show the german flag in public until a few years. It was even not suitable to say "I'm proud of germany" or "I'm proud to be german" (I wouldn't say this still)
Interestingly it was the football world championship 2006 which changed this completely: it was the first big event where nearly all german started to wear german flags everywhere. After that event you could see now at bigger events (mainy football) flags on some houses...

Impossible before 2006!

I'm referring to the Polish Minister of Foreign Affairs - Radoslaw Sikorski, who said that Germany should take a stand when it comes to what is going on with their money (the Greece thing), and that strong Germany is better for central Europe. Of course Polish media crucified him after that statement.

The para-militaristic examples are just examples of what I was into earlier... now I'm more into finding a new job... and a "new" car BTW do you know anyone with E39 series 530D BMW for sell ?

I did noticed the lack of flags, when I was visiting my family in Leverkusen, even compered to Poland - where exposing it still bring back memories of May parades of the Soviet Union era

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Chris Oleksy

Ah, I haven't read carefully, I thought you meant the german foreign minister ...


And what about Autoscout24?
But no, I do not know somebody who sells an E39 ...

I'm checking the Autoscout24.de every day, but there are none in the range I'm interested in - they're either in poor condition, and cheap, or rarely used with every single optional equipment, and therefore too expensive
I'll probably have to expand my search pattern to include the 525D model

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Chris Oleksy

Hi Guernseli,

You wrote: "But I can't simply not accept that you generalize us germany with phrases like "many young germans ...".

I'm sorry to tell you but my use of the phrase "many young germans" could actualy be replaced by "most young Germans"!!! at least here, and the scarry part is, they are not neo nazis.
Yet again I can't remember hearing such insults before the Media started questioning how the german people should feel about their past history....but now it can be heard here almost everyday, it gets used almost as often as certain other more normal insults!.. like a certain area of anatomy!
Everybody seems to be just talking about nazis in this discussion sadly I'm talking about the change in the general atmosphere here.
Believe me I would like to be wrong.
One other thing: of course Germans should be proud of Germany, everybody should be proud of where they come from, as long as it is the right type of pride, meaning that they are proud, but can understand that others have a right to be proud too. When I said that Germans should not be allowed to forget what happened I didn't mean that they should be ashammed of the Germany of today.

Happy flights,

M. Jordan.

ah, ok ...why not then ALL young germans?

sorry, at this point I can't take you seriously any longer ... I'm out of this discussion here.