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Did any P40s have some IFR navigation capabilities or were the strictly VFR ?

Not duing WWII and as a restored aircraft most would only have GPS installed

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Ron
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Thanks to Jimmie Doolittle, there were early gyro instruments available and and these along with primary panel instruments enabled the early fighters instrument capability although quite limited. 4 leg LF Radio ranges and Adcock ranges were available in the United States and it was actually possible for pilots qualified enough in the ART, (and I stress ART as flying a low freq range requires a certain degree of skill to use these ranges to fly coast to coast on instruments. Going cross country this way was a bit "taxing" in say a P40, but it WAS possible. Military aircraft of the period did have receivers capable of using a LF radio range.
All you needed to fly a low freq range was a LF radio receiver, a headset, and a compass.
The LF ranges were augmented with non directional radio beacons which also supported primitive but usable navigation capability.
Outside the US, early navigation was a crap shoot. Most combat navigation was accomplished with a combination of celestial, dead reckoning, and pilotage.
I learned to navigate on a LF range. Compared to what we have today, I can tell you that the early pilots who flew the mail and pioneered early radio navigation were a GREAT bunch of sticks!
Dudley Henriques

I have talked with my father quite a bit about LF Range (he called it "the beam") which he used during his USAAC flight training in the US. He was fascinated by "the beam." The ability to navigate to your destination field at night or in poor visibilty using a radio and a compass seems primitive now but was high tech stuff then.

Your dad was right. There were 4 on course "beams". Each a known course. There were 4 quadrants, 2 emitting an A morse signal and 2 quadrants an N signal. Where the A and N signals merged formed the 4 solid tone beams. The hard part was in understanding that it was the volume of the signal that gave you your aprox distance from the station and ultimately when you got "on the beam" and took up a heading you believed would take you to the station told you whether you were actually going toward or away from the station.
It was archaic to be sure, but a life saver for some poor pilot flying on top VFR and lost.
It was a real learning time in aviation.
Someday, it would be very interesting if some add on developer came out with a program that set up a LF range with a simple LF receiver for your aircraft that could be used with an inexpensive headset. The range could be placed anywhere you wanted it to be and used for practice and education in FSX.
One thing for sure. You'd see a LOT of sim pilots out here suddenly finding a new a much deeper appreciation for what the pilots during the period had to deal with )))))

Dudley Henriques

I was just reading a interesting article about the BC-1206-CM Beacon Receivers (besides airplanes, I love radios). The said that it used to be fitted into the instrument panel of the P-40 (and P-51) for ferry flights, then taken out. Would this be the radio that they used to receive the LF signals?

Air navigation is always a interesting subject. So much different then today with a GPS.

There are some pictures here:
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/setchell_r ... _1206.html

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Jim

There is a Radio Range addon avalible for fs9 and fsx.
http://www.dc3airways.com/our_fleet/rad ... _range.htm
http://www.flightsim.com/file.php

I think it is like one of those sayings...'Just because it can fly in IMC, doesn't mean you should. My Miata has a rollbar and handles corners really well, but that doesn't mean I should drive like I plan on using it A little while ago I was visiting the Midget Mustang website, it said that while the MM could be equipped with IFR instrumentation, it wasn't recommended. That being said...the difference between FS and Reallife, go ahead and do the things that you shouln't do in real life for the pure fun and challenge of it

These fighters seemed like they wouldn't make very stable IFR platforms. I don't know if I would file an IFR flight plan in one, even if it was equiped with modern nav equipment. Being fighters they aren't the most stable aircraft to begin with so flying one in IMC through turbulence would have to be quite a challenge, on top of dealing with ATC clearences..."..standby to copy clearence..." The B-17 on the otherhand is quite a stable IFR platform. It is a fun challenge to shoot NDB approaches in it using it's old instrumentation.

I am curious if Dudley would fly one of these restored warbirds down to IFR mins.

Cheers
TJ

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"The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." - Douglas Adams

You're correct in that these fighters don't make the most stable IFR platforms. They can however be flown in instrument conditions by any pilot qualified in type and with the proper experience.
Generally speaking, many restored prop fighters have had the old LF and VHF radios replaced along with their older attitude instruments with more modern avionics unless the aircraft has been deliberately restored to it's original equipment as a designed project.
Equipped with a modern panel and associated avionics, most of the owners I know personally will file IFR cross country if needed and plan for minimums at arrival somewhat higher than published minimums.
Dudley Henriques

Ive spoken to an old geezer pilot who got his IFR licence or whatever it was called back then in 1948 I think. Basically he said flying IFR back in those days was hit and miss deal, he said that by the time you got out of the clouds you REALLY hoped you were where you were supposed to be, his panel was a Partial panel to MY 182 STEAM GAUGES which is now considered a partial panel to Today's standards lol. so they learned on Partial Partial panel. so his panel consisted of an Airspeed indicator, Altimeter, Vertical speed indicator, slip and turn coordinator, Magnetic compass. Not sure if the a rudimentary HSI had been made back then. doubt it though. So no ILS, ADF, VOR, RMI, RNAV etc.

I am Sure there were ways to navigate IFR back in the day. I recall stories of Jimmy doolittle doing some flights with a covered cockpit and flying only on gauges. At the End of WWII German pilots did not have enough time to learn IFR tenchniques and were taught to ask for ceiling of the overcast then spin the aircraft to below ceiling recover and land. Sounds pretty risky. Back in the day IFR was more of an ART than numbers like it is today. So many navigational systems have flourished and passed since the early days.

by the way, I dont think many of these restored warbirds are ever flown in IMC conditions. they are too valuable to risk. I remember one instance where a P51 was heading to a airshow over an overcast and had engine problems the opened the canopy and were ready to jump just in case the engine failed, The engine seized and turned the aircraft upside down ejecting it pilot and passenger. I also remember the Howard Hughes H-1 Replica was being flow either to or from Oshkosh. Dont know if the left IMC or not but ended up crashing due to IMC conditions.

But what the heck its a sim and the plane dont cost anything.

Some are. In fact I know one pilot who flew his P51 out of Phila International into Washnington National on business IFR routinely and his was a stock 51D with upgraded radios and an HSI. His Mustang was surplus, well maintained, and flown only for personal transportation and business.
Dudley Henriques

I did say MAny of these are ever flown in IMC, I didnt say none of them. It depends on how rare the aircraft is. P51, there are still many of those around compared to others(although it does surprise me he would use it so leisurely) for example a zero or in one extreme FIFI the b29. Most of these will never see IFR because they are too valuable.

I would be very surprised to find a vintage B29 like Fifi or a rare museum restoration filed IFR.

I believe the question asked concerned stability of WW2 fighters as that would relate to flying them IFR.
On that basis, it is simply noted that in properly equipped fighters flown by pilots currently instrument rated there is no reason to exclude these warbirds from flight in instrument conditions.
This doesn't necessarily mean it's wise to file an IFR flight plan into known conditions that include an approach to published minimums. It simply means that such flights are possible without consideration to any "stability" problems.
The pilot I mentioned flew his Mustang as a personal airplane and flew it routinely back and forth between Washington and Philadelphia on IFR flight plans. Never had a problem.
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques

Oh, Dont get me wrong! These suckers could be flown in Imc ETERNALLY if it is equipped right and the pilot is rated or is knowledgeable for that matter. I was just mentioning that most of these aircraft are pretty valuable and IMC is a little risky for an aircraft that is not being produced and holds such an important piece of Aviation history.

Any aircraft can be flown into IMC if it is equipped correctly, Some may not be stable some might. I think fighters are not Unstable platforms, They are designed for maneuverability but its no GeeBee, I know modern fighters have a computer that does most of the work for the pilot but back then the pilot had to fly it so it was never designed with the instability of an f16 if you know what I mean. I mean remember the p51 was also designed for very long flights so I am sure that designers took Pilot fatigue into consideration, You want your pilot as fresh as possible once hes at the scene. I remember a 51 veteran being interviewed said that He would fly close formation to keep him awake because if not hed fall asleep. So it mustve been a stable platform to setup for cruise descent climb etc.

If the question is that these can be flown in IMC then yes they can be. no biggie. Shoot I could fly a Cri cri in IMC if it had the right gauges.