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Have you tried to click the cold and dark button? its best visible exactly there, the air tank is filling by itself, of course not a big problem, but, i hate to say.... a little canned effect.

Well i didn't try to depressurize the system completely, to see if it exist then, will need to check:>


Edit: I tried to reload the plane, and it really works, the auto reffiling stops, after depressurizing the air system, the flaps don't go down, and the brakes don't work, without reloading, the air system refills automatically, you can't go cempletely empty with it, good find , have you checked if reloading has any bad effects on other systems?

Ehh now, after starting the engine and shutting it down, the auto refill shows again, and i thought we were close to something
Well the cold and dark button is not a culprit either, i clicked it right after reloading, and it didn't start the refilling.

For now we know that refill has something to do with the engine start, i rejected the air pump spinning down after the engine shutdown too, it doesn't work but the air is coming from somewhere maybe the air pump is not a real air pump

Maybe it was added for a reason, to pressurize the brakes, when the fsx is starting, well the engine is running too ( so does the airpump) so i don't see
this plausible.

Yeah. Is why I was saying in my original post that it was kind of hit or miss for me, but is somehow connected to the engine shut down. Sure if we mess with it enough maybe we can give Scott enough info to maybe track it down. Without knowing really how Accu-sim works internally my best guess is that when you reload the aircraft the command for this air pump is off. Obviously starting the engine makes Accu-sim start the pump. Somehow though when we turn the engine off the air pump is not recieving this command to shut off seeing as if I sit on the ground, and cycle flaps/brakes and watch the tank it refills as if this pump is still on. I don't think it really has anything to do with FSX itself since Accu-sim is taking over bits and pieces of the FSX coding, so it is running on the outside through SimConnect I would think.

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S Jordan
Milviz Staff Member
AM; United States Navy
FSX Hours: 2000 and counting

I have a question

1.Is the supercharger damage modelled ? i couldn't crash it, no matter what.

2.What is the procedure for start up in low OAT, particurarly a moment when you primed it so long, and even then it doesn't want to start for the love of god , wait a couple of minutes ? maybe visit a hangar.

PS:

If someone from A2A is reading, please look at the discussion starting on the page 4 of this thread (starting on the list of observations on 1.2 update)

Man, i can't get enough of this bird, just, i don't know how can i praise it more.

Yeah flick rolls hihi (Did i mention, they are better now? of course i did )

New list:

1.One can refill things like CO2 bottle or charge the battery in flight, by using Shift+7 key, of course the hangar won't open, but despite that it will recharge these, maybe it would be better to make recharging optional in the hangar ?

2.Engine is not giving propulsion, when the tanks are dry, but fuel in ducts is still available, the piper for example doesn't have this problem.

3.The pneumatic system is repressurizing itself, without action of the user, it has something to do with the engine start, reloading the plane stops the refilling, but after a startup and shutdown, it shows again.

4.Engine doesn't want to start in low (20-30 F) temps, set low OAT in the scenario manager, prior to loading the scenario/flight, load flight, cold start button, and try to start, it is essential to follow it exactly like described.

5.Starter is not push and hold button

6.No supercharger damage

7.Problems with gear system listed by Mr.Levkovvvv here: viewtopic.php?f=77&t=27852

8.Problems with assigning the buttons through the input configurator.

Noticed, that the RealAir spitfire doesn't have this trim problem i mentioned in this topic:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=26660&hilit=trimming

And shown in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuATb5EygKw

Would it be possible to implement something similar, without affecting elevator/rudder work, prop-wash, or stall characteristics?

If so, the rudder trim could use the same too


9. Starting on the primer only doesn't work, also the primer has different sounds when fuel cocks are on, or off, if this can indicate something


Already sent it to Mr. Scott, but i wanted to combine findings from different peoples in one place.

(Maybe some little tinkering to the FM, when the airspeed is close to 0, and the acft is swirling, but that is for the wishlist )

Subjective. Not really a bug.


Perhaps there might be an issue, but perhaps not. I have not experienced any issue in starting in cold weather, but care must be taken.


Subjective, and further if you "unclick" while off of the button itself, it "will" stick.


How do you mean? I'm not sure I know of this issue.


First, A2A not modelling a late model Spitfire. Direct comparisons are a bit moot. Second, I thought this subjective issue was addressed in that topic? You are using the aircraft in a very non-natural way, and such maneuvers would cause extreme over-stress. You're using trim in way that it was not meant to be used, EVER. The only thing A2A isn't modelling is you ripping your wings completely off.


?


I think I referred to this in a previous topic. If the fuel cocks are NOT on, you're not priming anything to my knowledge. It's like having no fuel tank selected and priming. And yes, of course the sound of priming sounds different... you're just pumping air.


? What do you mean "swirling?"

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1.Well, if someone could do something like that in RL, i would give him a high-five , of course not a big problem, just a note

2. Thats why it is written to follow the description, one day you will use a default weather, and no problems will arise, and a second day you will set the weather differently ( in a scenario manager), and there it is.

3. If the RL spitfire starter is subjective, not objective, then i don't know what is anymore , normally, you would need to hold the button with your hand, it wouldn't pop into pressed position, it can be really easy repaired, by making one need to hold a button on the stick for example, then the mouse would be free to do whatever needs to be done.

4.I myself, didn't have problems with buttons assigning, it made its way here, becouse some people had this problem, possibly, a hardware issue, not related to A2A.

5.Is the fuselage that much different ? this is not a problem related to a power unit, i just spotted that an another company made this problem dissapear, so asked again if its possible to implement (becouse it is an issue, no excuses), the rudder also experiences this behavior, perhaps not as spectacularly, but it is there, despite that, i have this trim available, it has a certain range of movement, and i can't use it ? it SHOULD give a realistic result, if someone says that it is not possible, i refer again to Real Air.

6.To my knowladge + earlier versions of the spit, i doesn't work like that, you can prime with cocks off, of course i can be mistaken, maybe it is like that, but on the list of new features it is written that primer-only start is possible, but it isn't.( or should i open fuel cocks, prime, then shut fuel cocks, and voila ?) Would need to consult for example Mr. Henriques, or Mr. Killratio (he said that he will test it.)

Accu-Sim Core Update v.1.1 to v.1.2
-"Can now start engine on primer alone" -and it regards spitfire, not P-40

7. That one about swirling, well you can disregard it, it was my little wish again regarding prohibited maneuvers.


I suppose, that all other problems ( not taken into account in your post) are accepted ?

Are you double clicking the entry cell to open it? Once it is open press the required button.

So far the only time I had issues starting her were when I started in -100C. The gentlemen I was flying with accidentally set the weather wrong. My engine oil was probably a block of ice.


I'll test this, but either way is fine to me and in many ways subjective. Part of the reason I say it is, is due to the fact that you are having to do multiple things at once in a cockpit to get the aircraft going. Now the way I remember it working was that it was a push button and hold function, but if you moved out of the button area (for example, looked around a bit), then it would stick until started, which is also fine with me. I'm comfortable with both sides of the coin personally as during startup things can get really busy and it is not nearly as intuitive as it is in real life to push a very small button.


There are a couple of things here I don't get. First, why are you asking a developer to change their FM to mimic another developers? Not to say RealAir has it wrong in their excellent package, but where did they get their information? Second, what exactly are you trying to accomplish? I, nor anyone in the aforementioned topic understand what you are trying to accomplish. A maneuver like you described would be completely prohibitive, and A2A is not modeling your wings ripping off. What exactly do you want changed? To reduce the amount of trim sensitivity? As Darryl and Dudley put so eloquently, you would suffer extreme repercussions from such a maneuver. I still don't think there is an issue here, but that is my opinion.


I'm more than willing to discuss it, but I have to know what you are talking about first.


That is up to the A2A team. I'm sure if there are issues they deem necessary to fix, they will be addressed.

Buddy, I think some of the more subjective things you bring up in regards to the Spitfire are based more heavily on your particular way of flying versus actual bugs. Some things should be given credence, but others are matters of personal opinion. A2A cannot build an aircraft specific to the way you think it should be built, and very few are reporting some of the issues you bring up. Those which have been looked at and compared to their real world counterparts and found to be actual errors will likely be addressed, but I feel you are beating a dead horse on some of them.

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1.Follow the description of the problem, of course no autostart ok ?

Also, to confirm, do you have 1.2 patch installed ?

2.Like said, not enough hands to operate is not an issue, if one will use the buttons ON THE STICK or keyboard, if it was needed to use both hands to start the engine, then make people use them, don't dumb down the simulation, the same would apply to the gear handle, but that is not a disscused issue here.

3.What is there to understand more ? the kind of trim, used in a spitfire wouldn't give me such a turning performance in the first place, there would be no change in turning radius, could be even worse in some cases (drag from trim tabs), thats what i meant all along, the wings not ripping off are not a problem, becouse if the trim would be modelled like it should, there wouldn't be an over g scenario, how i know, that realair made it ? becouse i have their package, the plane normally stalls, isn't turning tighter, turns normally.

To add, im not the one who should be reporting these in the first place, it is a job of the beta team, but well, i found in an hour of flying, what they didn't, so reported it.

4.Why should i start discussing it, if i wil get an ansfer ''You shouldn't do this or that" it will be a "Never ending story", but if you will, it regards a situations, where the speed is close to zero, and the plane is rotating fast, sometimes, but mostly not, the plane would shift a little from a place to place, not really a problem, thats why not called a bug, just some more tinkering would be enough, i guess FSX doesn't like close to 0 speed aggresive manuevers.



Then better not report bugs, let them be, until someone else finds them, and THEN they will be repaired, i see that bugs are not a problem, but more, the person, who reports them, i don't think you even bothered to check for example this start problem as described, even 2 posts later, saying "I don't have a problem with that" well, you will have it, all that needs to be done is to set low temperature prior to loading the scenario. Also, i don't want A2A to build things, that are not existent in a real one, that why these are called "bugs" not "Orange county choppers" tuning.

Regards

Caldemeyn, I produced the official videos for the Spitfire and P-40. I am quite aware of the 1.2 patch and have it installed, and have since before the product was available to public. Following standard starting procedures, I am not having issues starting in cold weather, as long as it isn't so cold that the oil is a block of ice.


You are free to your opinion, and I am free to mine. Obviously we do not agree here, but that does not necessarily mean that either of our opinions are greater than the other. I do however think that what you are arguing is simply subjective in nature and does not in any way ruin the simulation or it's fidelity. I will not discuss it further.


In your video you perform a very high G accelerated stall, one that as previously mentioned would likely result in a departure of flight and/or rip off your wings. I can also pull a 135 turn to the right in an F-15 going 900 MPH and yank my aircraft to 10+ Gs and probably put myself to sleep from GLOC or cause the stores on the aircraft to buckle or malfunction, etc. Is it realistic? *shrugs*

And who says it is unrealistic? The fact you own the RealAir plane, with it's different center of gravity, changes in control surface design and weight which are all induced from them being later mark Spitfires? I have the RealAir package too, and it is a good simulation of the mature Spitfires which were produced later in the war. What you are calling a tighter turn radius is actually a departure of flight in many ways, similar to an accelerated stall. Trim is can sometimes be used on some of these older aircraft to get themselves out of a dive when compressability is induced. I still fail to see how what you did is unrealistic or is an issue, because the aircraft performed an accelerated stall, departed from flight and was uncontrollable. What you are suggesting is that A2A reduce the sensitivity (possibly unrealistically) so that it does not add to the overall elevator effectiveness on the aircraft, and you are comparing it to a MUCH different aircraft and developer in doing so.

I'll say it again. I STILL do not see an issue here and "I" believe the problem is suffered between the back of your chair and your computer screen.


I find this VERY disingenuous.


When the aircraft is at zero speed it is not flying. Of course it will do some crazy stuff. I'm still not sure however what you mean by this. Are you discussing a spin? Are you talking about a hammerhead style stall or maneuver? What is your reference how the plane should fly? I'm having a hard time understand what your flight profile looks like and what results you are seeing that you feel are unrealistic. Perhaps it is a language barrier issue.


The problem Caldemeyn isn't necessarily what you are saying, but how you are going about saying it. Saying things like "it is a job of the beta team, but well, i found in an hour of flying, what they didn't, so reported it" gives your way of reporting these questionable or subjective issues significantly less credit. You attract more bees with honey than vinegar. I'm not speaking for A2A on this matter, but your tone and constant drum beat on these topics has kept me from responding to them. How do you expect members like Darryl or Dudley to react to that?



I have tried it. I found no problems with starting under normal conditions. In those atypical conditions, the aircraft performed atypically. Under extreme conditions, such as -50 or lower temperatures, the aircraft performs poorly when starting... and so did all three of the vehicles I owned when I lived in Alaska, and why we would plug in engine block heaters, oil pan heaters and battery blankets on all of our vehicles in order to operate in such cold conditions. The viscosity of the oil is so thick, as well as the the various parts of the engine so cold, that she simply does NOT want to start.


I dare you to find a Spitfire pilot that performed the maneuver you did in your video who is still alive. I also dare you to ask people who have run engines in such cold temperatures what their opinion is. Well, I never ripped the wings off a Spitfire, but I lived in Fairbanks for several years, and I can assure you that starting a cold engine in such poor weather and temperatures IS VERY HARD.

I think it's more a case of you bought a motorcycle from A2A and now want to turn it into a chopper to meet your expectations of how the plane should fly, versus how they were actually flown. I do not see them as realistic expectations, "at all."

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1.Who says, that this is a realistic manuever, in no other simulator, when setting trim to high, i could make tighter turns, it shouldn't work like that, the plane should stall earlier, this kind of trim doesn't increase turn rate, even Mr. Scott agreed, that it is an issue, trim in situations provided, like dive still doesn't provide better turning radius, it only decreases the effort needed to physically move the stick, which in a dive, can be overwhelming.

2.No insult intended torwards the beta team, one can't show everything through wires, i see, that people are just too sensitive around here, can't say anything, even little away from normal conversation, if anything, i apologise for a misunderstanding.

3.Set temperature to 30 degress F, it should be more or less 0 degress Celsius, this is a reasonable temperature, also 12 strokes, as per manual.
You know, under normal conditions, i too had no problem starting, Mr. Scott checked my startup procedure and found no errors, also i can reproduce it all the time, with both MK's.


Still, this conversation doesn't dismiss this bug report provided, still ansfers are questionable, and the conversation made its way towards personal trips, i hate when it happens.

Just for purposes of testing, here is what I just did again:

MKIIa Spitfire - Cold Start
OAT -29 Celsius -20 Fahrenheit
Oil -29 C
Winter Oil
100 Octane
12 shots of primer

First shot upon firing cartridge, she fired up after pressing the start button. It wasn't immediate, and I could tell the engine was fighting it, but with a bit of throttle she turned over. No additional primer needed.

MK1a Spitfire - Cold Start
OAT -29 Celsius -20 Fahrenheit
Oil -29 C
Propeller course
Winter Oil
87 Octane
Trolley acc attached
12 shots of primer

First attempt: Did not turn over. Almost caught however. Additional priming did not help.

Second attempt: Let starter cool down momentarily, primed 5 additional strokes before restarting. Upon start, engine whined for about 7 seconds. Primed one additional shot while starting and engine coughed to life.

Oil pressure was THROUGH THE ROOF on both cases even with winter oil and required significant amount of throttle as expected. She performed about as good as possible with the conditions. Warm up was not fun, especially with the oil pressure being so high. Brought down throttle during warm up to maintain safe maximums for warming. Took a long time to warm her up.

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I think, that we found something strange...

When i was starting in -25 dergess F, on NORMAL oil, it catched, on winter oil it catched faster.

When i was starting in 25 degress F, on normal, it didn't want to start, on winter oil too.

Hmm...

Not necessarily. Remember, everything is dynamic. Every start is measuring the fuel, oil, etc, so every time you crank her over you WILL get different results, just like the real thing. I just tried it at 25 F exactly with the MK1a and while I had to massage the primer a bit, she started for me.

EDIT: Same results with the cartridge starter on the MKIIa. First try she didn't take, but on second cartridge she turned over WHILE priming.

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