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 Post subject: Re: Landing the P-47
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 2:42 am 
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Mitchell wrote:
9. This one is tricky and takes a lot of practice and familiarity with the airplane; but it was common practice among hot fighter jocks in WWII (it’s similar to a curved, pylon-turn carrier approach) -- Approach the runway with full flaps, slightly high, at a slightly higher than normal approach airspeed, 90 degrees to it, aiming at a place just a hundred yards or so before the threshold. When you are fairly close in, dive and turn hard with lots of power to line up with the center of the runway, chopping power and leveling off an instant before the main wheels touch down. Whew. I’ve seen films of pilots coming back to England from missions over Europe doing this in P-47s, P-51s, and P-38s; and it’s amazing.
Also seen this on videos from Sicily and Iwo Jima, do you know any more details - like history of that landing technique? All I know is, there is no mention of it in any flight manual I have from that period. It appears to be a stopgap invention that somehow got spread over the USAAF.

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 Post subject: Re: Landing the P-47
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 6:51 pm 
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Hi Sundowner,

It is a well-worn cliché that “necessity is the mother of invention”. While sometimes annoyingly simplistic, clichés can be useful in that they usually state truths which have been learned from long experience. The unusual landing techniques that pilots in WWII adopted were born primarily of necessity, i.e., the necessity to be able to see the runway before landing.

The exigencies of war, and the attitudes that are engendered therein, often lead people to engage in behavior and the adoption of habits and techniques that are unorthodox, if not actually roguish. The fighter pilots of the U.S. Army Air Forces in World War II were no exception to this. Presented with a troublesome situation (poor visibility over the nose of the aircraft upon approach to landing), and what could be politely called “the suspension of formal behavior” which is ubiquitous in a combat zone, they gravitated to inventive methods of getting their airplanes “safely” onto the runway.

It could be reasonably argued that one of the methods of landing which they adopted, which consisted of diving at the runway, turning hard at low airspeed, and leveling off at the last possible second before touchdown, is hardly a “safe” way to land an airplane. That having been said, we ought to also consider the extreme situation that these pilots were placed in on a daily basis.

Mostly ordinary kids from ordinary American homes, they were asked to, and did, put their lives on the line every day. They regularly saw many of their comrades killed or horribly injured. Like all those in the armed services who have ever served in harm's way, they were told, and they naturally understood, that it was their duty to disregard their safely and their lives for the success of the mission-- victory over the enemy. That is the terrible nature of war.

Once that mind-set and generally fatalistic attitude sunk in, it was inevitable that it would spill over into other things that they did, such as the way that they flew their aircraft. Once these pilots were actually in combat on a regular basis, the “book”, flight manuals, and the niceties of formal flying methods which had been well-learned in training, were thrown out very quickly. In combat, practical reality becomes the rule, and a kind of (to put it politely) “devil take the consequences” attitude is inevitable in such a situation.

Similarly, supervisory and commanding officers usually looked the other way when such unorthodox behavior was exhibited by their young pilots. The wisest of these officers recognized and understood that the exuberance of youth, combined with the grim reality of war, created a volatile mixture that sometimes needed venting. to be left alone, and not micro-managed (although I don’t think that “micro-manage” was a term used in those days).

The combination of the foregoing things was the likely reason why we see films of pilots doing what seems to us to be these incredibly daring and dangerous landing approaches. To these pilots, it was not a big deal, I am sure. They flew their aircraft for as many as eight hours almost every day; flying and handling their aircraft was akin to breathing to them, and their skills were honed to near perfection. That they successfully pulled off these maneuvers with such apparent ease and aplomb is a testament both to those well-learned skills, and equally to the superior eyesight, reflexes and abilities that youth often possesses, however fleetingly, in such abundance.

These pilots, like pilots everywhere and at all times, took great pride in their extraordinary and unique abilities. I think that we must forgive them, as their superior officers forgave them, if they pushed the envelope of conventional behavior here and there.

This "envelope pushing" was probably due to a combination of things: traditional AAF enthusiasm, a bit of prideful showing off, a “daredevil” –like desire to test personal limits, and perhaps more than a little peer pressure.

All of the above is not unique to the WWII era. People in combat have exhibited such behavior and attitudes from time immemorial, and right up to the present day.

As to how this “dive and turn approach” became so popular a method of landing in the AAF, no one apparently knows for sure. Probably, one day, a pilot figured out this method as a way to keep the runway in sight during the approach, and after doing it, successfully made it down. The other pilots in his squadron, seeing him pull it off, and thinking that it was too cool for school, copied him. The grapevine being very sophisticated and deeply entangled in the armed services, these kinds of things tend to spread very quickly.

Anyway, that’s my speculation about it. What do you think?

Mitchell


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 Post subject: Re: Landing the P-47
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 12:40 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 11, 2009 12:33 pm
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The horsees mouth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwVXV0bPTik


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 Post subject: Re: Landing the P-47
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 5:04 pm 
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A2A Chief Pilot

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Posts: 215
Hi sumdum,

Indeed, the very mouth itself. We are fortunate to have films like these, as well as official U. S. A. A. F. training films and publications, which give us excellent and authoritative information with regard to how to fly these airplanes. These films, etc., along with the information that people such as Dudley Henriques, who posts on this site, and who flies these airplanes today, are kind enough to pass along to us, help us to understand just what the best methods and techniques for flying them are.

I think it is wise to remember that even when we are discussing such an exotic and fabulous bird as the P-47, and others equally as fabulous, we are still talking about flying airplanes. Basic physical laws and rules, as well as long-established methods, procedures and understandings about lift, weight, thrust, and drag, apply to the piloting of every airplane, from the J-3 Cub to the F-15 -- and beyond.

As long as we humans insist upon putting our behinds in fast and high-flying machines, we will always have to consider these basic concepts of aeronautics, and apply them with skill and good judgment.

Mitchell


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 Post subject: Re: Landing the P-47
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 1:39 pm 
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A2A Chief Pilot

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:29 pm
Posts: 215
Just an uncharacteristically quick word here:

Since the recent P-47 update, with its new lift/drag corrections, I am generally approaching the landing with a few more inches of manifold pressure on final with flaps all down, than before (approximately 38”). All in all, the airplane feels even better and more “correct” now, as well as I can assess it. If any of the real-world Jug drivers out there would like to comment, I’m sure we would all be grateful.

Mitchell


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 Post subject: Re: Landing the P-47
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:59 am 
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I just love this topic! :D

Is excelent to get the feel of the Jug.

Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: Landing the P-47
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:06 am 
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A2A Chief Pilot

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:29 pm
Posts: 215
To all those who are reading this thread, I strongly suggest that you also read Dudley Henriques’ recent post “Some tips on flying the P-47.” Mr. Henriques knows well of what he speaks as he has had a great deal of experience flying the real P-47 as well as many other fabulous aircraft, and is one of the most respected pilots in the world. We are fortunate indeed to have such an aviation luminary donate his time and efforts to enlighten us about flying in general and the P-47 in particular. I am sure that I represent all of us in thanking Mr. Henriques for his generous and valuable additions to our discussions on this site.

Mitchell


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 Post subject: Re: Landing the P-47
PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:16 pm 
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Airman Basic

Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:40 am
Posts: 3
Hey Mitchell,

why don't you make a tutorial for some approaching styles?
I mean like some youtube video...

I just bought the p47 a week ago and i still have many problems flying and landing this complex bird.
At the moment i'm glad if don't destroy the whole thing, when i touch the ground :)

reading your instructions is really a good help but watching them would be just way better...

maybe you have some time to show newbies like me how to fly this thing in nice way...

I would appreciate it :)


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 Post subject: Re: Landing the P-47
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:35 am 
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A2A Chief Pilot

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:29 pm
Posts: 215
Evad,

I'm glad the thread was helpful to you. The video is a good idea. I'll talk to Scott about it.

You know, it took pilots many months of training in simpler and lighter airplanes before they were capable of flying aircraft like the P-47, and it took many weeks of training in the '47 after that. It certainly took a lot more than the week you have had the '47 for.

I don't know what your flying experience is, but if you haven't flown realistically modeled heavy singles (+8,000 lbs.) with more than one thousand horsepower in a flight simulator before, I'm not surprised that the P-47 is a bit of a handful for you.

IMO, the A2A P-47 (along with the Boeing 377 Stratocruiser) are the most realistically modeled flight simulator aircraft ever made. While flying the Jug can be learned by anyone who is diligent and takes the time to do it right, it is complex and demanding of the pilot, just as the real one was, and it's not a beginner's airplane by any means. There's a lot to think about and to do when flying it.

We don't want you to be frustrated, we want you to have an enjoyable and satisfying experience with the '47 and all of A2A's aircraft. Perhaps you should practice flying a less demanding airplane, like the P-40 or the Spitfire for a while. Those are also highly realistically modeled aircraft, but those real airplanes were lighter, less complex and easier to fly than the P-47; and accordingly, they are good trainers for the '47. Flying the P-40, in particular, will teach you a lot about engine handling and management.

When you have mastered these airplanes, you will find the '47 only slightly more advanced, and you ought to be able to fly it well very quickly with a real sense of accomplishment.

Mitchell


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 Post subject: Re: Landing the P-47
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:33 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:59 am
Posts: 174
I have followed this thread with great interest, and am thankful for the fantastic, lengthy advice offered here. It's a show of great passion certainly.

I like flying the P47 a lot, and am getting better at landing it. One gripe I have is this --- as I do not have Track IR, I find the gun-sight/frame around the windscreen to be a major visual blockage when trying to line up with the runway threashold. Also, at the very last stage of final and during flare, I'm basically landing blind, with no visual to anything in front at all. This can be rather disconcerting indeed.

By the way, typically what would be your touchdown distance --- 500 ft, 1,000 ft, from threshold?


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 Post subject: Re: Landing the P-47
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:26 am 
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A2A Chief Pilot

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:29 pm
Posts: 215
Avio,

Thanks much for the kind comments. Passion for aviation is certainly a good description of my feelings.

Sorry it took so long to get back to you. I’ve been working with Scott on the new Piper J-3 Cub which should be out any day now.

I have Track IR, but I don't like to use it. I may try the newest version though, as it is supposed to be smoother. I hate that jerky, oversensitive response to every head movement, even when smoothed out and the sensitivities set very low. We don't really look around with head movement so much in the real world; we do it mostly with eye movements. When they come out with a commercially available system that tracks eye movements, I'll go for that like a shot.

The A2A P-47 gives us a very realistic experience, as close to flying the real thing as possible in a home-style simulator. Accordingly, if the real airplane had a gunsight which blocks vision, the A2A P-47 has it too. You really wouldn’t want it any other way, would you? (that would be cheating) LOL

As for lining up with the runway threshold, your final approach should be high enough, and steep enough to see over the nose well enough to see the runway until you are nearly right at it. Try extending the flaps later on the final approach and keeping the airspeed up a little, with the nose a little farther down until then. Low and slow on final is a definite recipe for disaster in a P-47, or any heavy, high performance aircraft.

As for the greatly reduced visibility in the last stage of final approach and flare and your problem with it; join the club. This was what every pilot had to cope with who flew taildraggers in WWII on all sides of the conflict. Some creative, alternative landing techniques were invented to overcome this problem. Landing a big taildragger requires experience, very fine judgment and good situational awareness. Not every Cadet acquired the skill, or was able to make the mental adjustments necessary to land these airplanes. Many washed out because of this (around 50% for all reasons, I understand).

Most taildraggers, even today, are harder to land because of the visibility problem. That is why tricycle gear (nosewheel) was invented. Take it as a challenge to your skill and aeronautical ability to master landing the P-47. It’s worth doing.

Under ordinary circumstances, it is generally considered best to touch down within the first quarter of the runway, however long it may be. Where to touch down is a matter of preference and situation. If there are obstacles at the threshold, trees, buildings, etc., you would naturally touch down a bit farther down the runway than if there is a flat, unobstructed approach. If the runway is on the short side, you would naturally want to touch down as close to the threshold as possible.

However, it is never a good idea to plan to touch down too close to the threshold in an airplane with a high wing-loading and a recommended approach speed of greater than 90 mph. This describes the P-47 to a tee. Doing this could cause you to touch down short of the runway. It’s a matter of judgment and experience. Give it plenty of room to flare and settle. Flare earlier and higher than you think you need to, and never chop the throttle fast until you are definitely very near to the ground. It’s alright to land with a little power to cushion the landing if you have a long enough runway, as this will add to your total landing distance.

Wheel landings are best in the P-47. You will keep the runway in sight longer, until the tail comes down. Then you must look out the small corners at each bottom side of the windshield to see your orientation to the runway sides. You should always land with the canopy open. You can stick your head out the side of the cockpit (using left and right eyepoint adjustments which you can key-map to your keyboard or control stick) to see where you are going, and s-turn when taxiing. That’s how they did it, and how you must do it, too.

I hope this was helpful.

Mitchell


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 Post subject: Re: Landing the P-47
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:52 am 
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Posts: 174
Hi Mitchell,

Thanks so much for clearing up on my doubts; I've been trying to come in steeper than usual to try and keep the runway in sight for as long as possible. I must say it feels a lot like dive-bombing though !

I'm so impressed with the way A2A makes the models, that I actually went on to buy up their B377, despite having read that it's quite a workhorse to work on. And it's expensive too (though I think it's worth it given the sheer amount of simulation that goes into it). Not sure how many people had bought into this one though, as the forum section there seems a little quiet.

And now PMDG has to come out with their JetStream Turboprop ... So many planes, so little time ...


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 Post subject: Re: Landing the P-47
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:33 pm 
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A2A Chief Pilot

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:29 pm
Posts: 215
Avio,

The approach to landing should not at any time seem like “dive-bombing”. A well-planned approach should always be under control, and not exceed a reasonable rate of descent or angle.

What is the altitude of your landing field? What is the weather? What is your altitude above the runway on downwind? What are your power settings and airspeed at various points in the pattern? At what point in the pattern are you extending full flaps? The more details you give me about your landing procedure and technique, the more I’ll be able to understand your problem.

If how you are flying the airplane on approach and landing is different from what I have described earlier in this thread, then try doing it following those steps, and see if it's any better.

There may be others who are having problems similar to yours, so what we discuss here may be of interest to many.

Mitchell


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 Post subject: Re: Landing the P-47
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:52 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:59 am
Posts: 174
Thanks, Mitchell. Will try some more times to get it right.

Avio


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 Post subject: Re: Landing the P-47
PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:34 pm 
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Airman

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:06 am
Posts: 33
This plane is incredible but watch out when you lower the gear and open the canopy (accusim version), as it will drop like a stone, a very big and very heavy stone, and you'll be fighting to keep her out of a stall and up in the air long enough to land!
Maybe it's just me and my inexperience but landing is hard in this beauty!
Thanks for making it believable A2A,
Toby


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