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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 3:41 pm 
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Airman

Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 6:50 pm
Posts: 29
Hi, there!

I did some research and discovered that burst time is incorrect in this game. It applies to all fighters present. Here you are in-game data:

- Bf-109E: 2 x 20 mm MG-FF cannons - 14 s, 2 x 7,92 mm MG 17 machine guns - 80s
- Bf-110C: 2 x 20 mm MG-FF cannons - 14 s, 4 x 7,92 mm MG-17 machine guns - 80s
- Spitfire, Hurricane: 8 x 0.303 Browning machine guns - 25 s

In reality it was as follows:

- Bf-109E: 7 s for MG-FF and 55 s for MG-17s
- Bf-110C: exactly as Bf-109E
- Spitfire, Hurricane: 16 s for Browning machine guns

I think rate of fire is wrongly modeled because ammo loadouts are correct.


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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 4:04 pm 
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BDG
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Hi Ultor,

We have been through this a few times around here.

The issue is what specs are used on ammo loads and rate of fire in 1940 (3 months of the BOB).

Thanks for the post. Where did you get your spec data?

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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 4:17 pm 
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Airman

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Mainly on this website:

http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-fi.html

However I suppose such radical change could derail entire DM in this game.


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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 4:26 pm 
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BDG
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The web site gives this data but no date or model of the A/C.

They specify : Eight Browning .303 guns installed in the wings. 300 rounds per gun, enough for 16 seconds of fire.

This = 2400 total.

We use 2800 based on our referrence spec and Rolan data for the correct date 1939 and models.

Was the correct load 300 or 350 in 1939 for the BOB models?

We always want to get it correct but the date and specific A/C models for the 3 month BOB are important to us.

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Intel I7 920 processor (2.66GHz, 8MB cache), 6GB DDR3 Triple Channel @1333MHz, 1.8GB NVIDIA GeForce GTX 295, Sound Blaster X-Fi PCI Sound Card, Windows 7 Home Premium 64 Bit , CH Fighter Stick & Pedals ,TrackIR4 Pro thanks to BobII crew.


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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 4:36 pm 
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Airman

Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 6:50 pm
Posts: 29
Buddye wrote:
The web site gives this data but no date or model of the A/C.


I think it gives very detailed A/C model description: "A Spitfire Mk.IA with a three-bladed de Havilland airscrew"

Additionally look at references:

- "The Spitfire Story" (Revised Second Edition) by Alfred Price, (Arms and Armour, 1995, ISBN 1 85409 305 3)

- "Supermarine Spitfire I & II" by Philip J.R. Moyes, (Aerodata International, 1977, ISBN 0 90546 925 9)


Buddye wrote:
They specify : Eight Browning .303 guns installed in the wings. 300 rounds per gun, enough for 16 seconds of fire.

This = 2400 total.

We use 2800 based on our referrence spec and Rolan data for the correct date 1939 and models.

Was the correct load 300 or 350 in 1939 for the BOB models?

We always want to get it correct but the date and specific A/C models for the 3 month BOB are important to us.


- Why do you use 1939 specs?

- Anyway difference in burst time is too high. You should take into account each weapon rate of fire and calculate salvo time according to your ammo loadouts data.


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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 4:51 pm 
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BDG
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Location: South East Texas, USA
Thanks for the referrences:

How does your reference handle tracers? Do they count as bullets?

The BOB started on July 10, 1940 so some/many of the A/C that started the BOB were manufactured in 1939 or before when the design was done. We are talking about only a 3 month fight here.

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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 5:29 pm 
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Chief Master Sergeant
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i have a quote for weight of fire for each if anyone cares.. :)

spitfire 1/2 = 10 lbs. three second burst

109 e = 18 lbs. three second burst


Luftwaffe alfred price

ballentine books /weapons


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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 6:31 pm 
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Airman
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Location: Norway
Ultor, don`t believe/trust cyberspace data 8)

An example:
I am an expert of Kevlar & Bullet Proof Vests. I found many many failures in internet. Even in Wikipedia :!:
That`s why choose your Main Source what you are looking for > correct.


Feridun

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"When ze enemiez plane fitz in ze noze itz time to fire!" Aces :-)


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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 6:44 pm 
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Airman

Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 6:50 pm
Posts: 29
Buddye wrote:
How does your reference handle tracers? Do they count as bullets?


I know such data only for German planes. During Battle of Britain MG 17's cartridge belt included projectiles in the following order: 5 AP + 4 API + 1 HEI. There was no tracer projectile per se because HEI hit was always visible to firing pilot allowing him to make targeting corrections. On the other hand MG-FF/M (Bf-109E-4 and above) cannon's cartridge belt was composed of 2 M-Geschoss + 2 HEI-T + 1 AP, so there was one type of tracer here. Tracer rounds in machine guns were used only on German bombers at that time.

Buddye wrote:
The BOB started on July 10, 1940 so some/many of the A/C that started the BOB were manufactured in 1939 or before when the design was done. We are talking about only a 3 month fight here.


I am surprised because I thought British fighter monthly production reached a hundred planes in 1940...supposedly Britain outproduced Germany in fighters then!


Last edited by Ultor on Sat May 16, 2009 6:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 6:54 pm 
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BDG
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Ultor,

You can change the rate of fire to your best knowledge. Here is a copy of a writeup I did some months ago:
My comments upon experimentation, at the bottom, are in blue.

Being just a 12th grade grad, moronic mechanic, wannabe artist, I tend not to delve into the BoBII code works,
but there has been some speak about guns, with no true answers as to how it works.
so, as a tinkering mechanic tends to do, I dived into the models/Weapons folder,
knowing not what I am fiddling with, until it breaks, or works.
After some experimentation, and having fun making Mini Guns for my Bf110C4, :wink:
I asked Buddye for further INFO about this file.

He duly supplied the code as "it is written!" (to borrow my favorite Arabic phrase).
"I thought we covered this long ago for historical accuracy" he implied.
"Can we tell the players how to manipulate it, and... God forbid... CHEAT it?" I queried.
"Yeah, why not? This is not only an historical simulation, although that is our main intent,
but also a game. Cheats? They are OK, why not? We ain't an On-Line outfit, yet." he said.

Those are not his verbatim exact words, but what he may have said, knowing him as I do.

Below is the current Weapons file.
NOTE! a # comments that line out, not to be used in game.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

# ATTENTION: Whitespace (spaces, tabs etc) are important!
#
Weapon { LT_BULLET_RAF 7470000 8 8 BULLET } #Rowan's Baseline
Weapon { LT_BULLET_050_CAL 8800000 8 8 BULLET50 } # WK 12.08.07 US 0.50 cal machine gun Browning .50 M2
# Weapon { LT_BULLET_RAF 7500000 5 8 BULLET } #Buddye Based on Bader's 303 gun data
# Weapon { LT_BULLET_RAF 7500000 7 8 BULLET } #Test to reduce kills
Weapon { LT_BULLET_LUF 8110000 8 8 BULLET } #Rowan's Baseline
# Weapon { LT_BULLET_LUF 7750000 5 4 BULLET } #/Buddye Based on Bader's gun Data
# Weapon { LT_BULLET_LUF 7750000 7 4 BULLET } #test to reduce kills
Weapon { LT_BULLET_REAR 8110000 4 8 BULLET }
Weapon { LT_CANNON 5490000 8 4 CANNON } #Rowan's Baseline
# Weapon { LT_CANNON 6000000 16 4 CANNON } #Buddye Based on Bader's gun data
Weapon { LT_BOMB 0 50 0 BOMB }
Weapon { LT_BOMB500 0 50 0 BOMB }
Weapon { LT_BOMBPAIR500 0 50 0 BOMB2 }
Weapon { LT_BOMB1000 0 50 0 BM1000 }
Weapon { LT_CONTACT 0 0 0 DUMMY } # The last line always has to look like this. The bob.exe code may use this to find the end of the list.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

==== From Buddye ===========================

Here are the comments from the code table:

struct LaunchInfo
{
LnchrType lnchrtype; //RJS 12May97
ULong muzlvel; //ms * 10000 //RJS 12Nov99
UByte firingdelay; //between each transient launch
UByte burstcount; //total number of transients per gun
ShapeNum theShape; //RJS 27Jul98
};

==== End Buddye ============================

So.. stickman thinks, but not truly knows,
For example, first Line :
Weapon { LT_BULLET_RAF 7500000 5 8 BULLET } #Buddye Based on Bader's 303 gun data

LnchrType lnchrtype; = LT_BULLET_RAF (( I do not think this should be changed ))

ULong muzlvel; //ms * 10000 = 7500000 (( 750 meters per second X 10,000 ))

UByte firingdelay; //between each transient launch = 5 (( Lower numbers gives less delay between rounds fired, higher rate of fire ))

UByte burstcount; //total number of transients per gun = 8 ?? Seems to have little effect when I changed this factor ??

ShapeNum theShape; (( Object used. Best left as is ))

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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 7:03 pm 
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Airman

Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 6:50 pm
Posts: 29
This listing above is C code of structures creation and initialization. These structures describe ammunition parameters. Here we are very good starting point! For example:

- LT_BULLET_RAF - ammo owner i.e. RAF or Luftwaffe
- 7470000 - round muzzle velocity in 10000 * [m/s]
- 5 - first key parameter
- 8 - second key parameter
- BULLET - ammo distinction i.e. machine gun or cannon projectile

Tell me what ammo types are used in BoB2 ver. 2.7 :?:

I am owner of this version.


Last edited by Ultor on Sat May 16, 2009 7:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 7:19 pm 
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BDG
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Location: Oahu, Hawai'i
Ultor,

I know not where you live (as you supply no clue) but the Weapons file, in the models folder,
is user editable.
Make it so, as to your belief. :)

We BDG folk believe in making BoBII easily moddable,
even if the structure is still clumsy, and difficult to tweak.
"No user should be a Slave To Hard Hidden Code!" is my mantra. :wink:

_________________
"Toto! I don't think we are in Kansas anymore!" Dorothy, OZ
"sniff.. sniff.. Snort! ARF! GGRRRR! ARF! (Tod der stinkenden republikanischen Partei, diesem ignoranten religiösen Monstrum.)" Toto


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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 7:37 pm 
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Airman

Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 6:50 pm
Posts: 29
Unfortunately I cannot find weapon file in my models folder. I have only ACM and ACD objects files.


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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2009 7:43 pm 
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Chief Master Sergeant
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Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:14 pm
Posts: 3310
stickman wrote:
Ultor,

I know not where you live (as you supply no clue) but the Weapons file, in the models folder,
is user editable.
Make it so, as to your belief. :)

We BDG folk believe in making BoBII easily moddable,
even if the structure is still clumsy, and difficult to tweak.
"No user should be a Slave To Hard Hidden Code!" is my mantra. :wink:


Yup exactly so. That is what is so great about bob. "Have it your way.." :mrgreen: After all this is your game.


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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 2:01 am 
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BDG
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Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 8:21 am
Posts: 4125
Location: wet coast, Canada
Ultor wrote:
Unfortunately I cannot find weapon file in my models folder. I have only ACM and ACD objects files.


Yes, you're behind the times! Weapons.txt was added with 2.08 . And 2.09 is well on its way to being superceded already...


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