Video - controlling the Mustang on takeoff

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AviationAtWar
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Video - controlling the Mustang on takeoff

Post by AviationAtWar »

I posted this in an existing 'Mustang pulls left' thread but I thought a dedicated thread for it would be more visible to others in the future. I hope this helps someone.

Last edited by AviationAtWar on 29 Jun 2018, 17:46, edited 2 times in total.

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DHenriques_
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Re: Video - controlling the Mustang on takeoff

Post by DHenriques_ »

AviationAtWar wrote:I posted this in an existing 'Mustang pulls left' thread but I thought a dedicated thread for it would be more visible to others in the future. I hope this helps someone.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39TozyVFWuU[/youtube]

That's the way to do it !

Dudley Henriques

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Re: Video - controlling the Mustang on takeoff

Post by TreeTops »

Great video mate. It shows a nice slow easy application of power, easily keeping centreline control. Thanks for making this one which we can point people to if required.
More aggressive take offs can be done with practice and familiarity, but this is an excellent demonstration to show people about slow power application.
Cheers
Trev

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Re: Video - controlling the Mustang on takeoff

Post by AviationAtWar »

Thanks, guys! Happy to get Dudley's seal of approval!

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bmbrzmn101
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Re: Video - controlling the Mustang on takeoff

Post by bmbrzmn101 »

I just want to say a big thank you for the video. I had become so fustrated with trying to fly the Mustang I had uninstalled it until a day or two ago. I finally decided to take her to Edwards AFB and try it again. Long story short. I took my time and she eased off the ground and I sorted her out and flew some minor aerobatics then with some trepidation setup for decent to land. Came in high and hot at first but she alighted with just a simple kiss of the dirt runway and a long rollout to make sure I controlled her adequately. She was quite the beast but lovely at the same time.
Again, thank you to all who have given advice about flying this aircraft.

Chris
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dvm
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Re: Video - controlling the Mustang on takeoff

Post by dvm »

I would like to add that your control setup will have an effect on the ease or difficulty of applying this technique for takeoff. For those that are still having difficulty it could be too sensitive controls. I have noticed since I have been using my new pedals which have long throws and excellent resolution that takeoff and landings especially with a cross wind are easier.

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Re: Video - controlling the Mustang on takeoff

Post by Scott - A2A »

AviationAtWar,

I noticed there was a bit of blue smoke coming from the engine. You may want to bring it into the maintenance hangar. Blue smoke can sometimes happen depending on conditions, how long the engine has sat, etc. but just give it a check to be sure.

Scott.
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Re: Video - controlling the Mustang on takeoff

Post by AviationAtWar »

It's smoking because compression is getting low - the engine has just under 100 hours on it now and has been run fairly hard. It would have smoked worse and steadily had I used more power in the video. Compression is down into the yellow on all but one cylinder. I'm going to continue running it this way to see what happens.

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Re: Video - controlling the Mustang on takeoff

Post by Lufthansa 380 »

A more proper technique for torque effect countering is applying right aileron and not just rudder. Applying only rudder will make your wheel slip and grip seideways into the ground. Since the properller is turning clockwise, newton's third law states that a counteracting force will be applying counterclockwise and thus putting more force on the left wheel, creating more friction/drag and therefore turning the airplane to the left. The most effective way to counteract this force is by applying right aileron (full deflection on the beginning of the roll and easing up as you accelerate). This of course does not take into account things like slipstream or other propeller induced effects, but the former even helps mitigating undesired effects anyway.

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DHenriques_
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Re: Video - controlling the Mustang on takeoff

Post by DHenriques_ »

Lufthansa 380 wrote:A more proper technique for torque effect countering is applying right aileron and not just rudder. Applying only rudder will make your wheel slip and grip seideways into the ground. Since the properller is turning clockwise, newton's third law states that a counteracting force will be applying counterclockwise and thus putting more force on the left wheel, creating more friction/drag and therefore turning the airplane to the left. The most effective way to counteract this force is by applying right aileron (full deflection on the beginning of the roll and easing up as you accelerate). This of course does not take into account things like slipstream or other propeller induced effects, but the former even helps mitigating undesired effects anyway.
The thing to understand about aileron correction for torque ( which is correct as torque is indeed a roll correction and not a yaw correction) is that applying full aileron early in the takeoff roll is useless as there is no dynamic pressure available for the ailerons.
Rudder is the only corrective counter force available as power is applied. This is why power in the Mustang HAS to be applied carefully and slowly. The actual truth of it is that for the early part of the takeoff you have little to no corrective force available on those ailerons so the trick is to get through that initial power application and build up dynamic pressure for the ailerons through SPEED so they become useful to combat torque.
If a Mustang takeoff is performed correctly, torque will be the last of the left turning forces corrected for.
So the correct method is to use rudder initially and all the way through the takeoff roll and BLEND IN AILERON as speed allows.
Until that speed is there full aileron is useless.
My takeoff technique in the Mustang was always the same. Right rudder early on, stick just aft of neutral, power in slowly, blend in aileron to work with the rudder, rotate.
Dudley Henriques

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Lufthansa 380
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Re: Video - controlling the Mustang on takeoff

Post by Lufthansa 380 »

DHenriquesA2A wrote:
Lufthansa 380 wrote:A more proper technique for torque effect countering is applying right aileron and not just rudder. Applying only rudder will make your wheel slip and grip seideways into the ground. Since the properller is turning clockwise, newton's third law states that a counteracting force will be applying counterclockwise and thus putting more force on the left wheel, creating more friction/drag and therefore turning the airplane to the left. The most effective way to counteract this force is by applying right aileron (full deflection on the beginning of the roll and easing up as you accelerate). This of course does not take into account things like slipstream or other propeller induced effects, but the former even helps mitigating undesired effects anyway.
The thing to understand about aileron correction for torque ( which is correct as torque is indeed a roll correction and not a yaw correction) is that applying full aileron early in the takeoff roll is useless as there is no dynamic pressure available for the ailerons.
Rudder is the only corrective counter force available as power is applied. This is why power in the Mustang HAS to be applied carefully and slowly. The actual truth of it is that for the early part of the takeoff you have little to no corrective force available on those ailerons so the trick is to get through that initial power application and build up dynamic pressure for the ailerons through SPEED so they become useful to combat torque.
If a Mustang takeoff is performed correctly, torque will be the last of the left turning forces corrected for.
So the correct method is to use rudder initially and all the way through the takeoff roll and BLEND IN AILERON as speed allows.
Until that speed is there full aileron is useless.
My takeoff technique in the Mustang was always the same. Right rudder early on, stick just aft of neutral, power in slowly, blend in aileron to work with the rudder, rotate.
Dudley Henriques
Yes, agreed. But I'd say ailerons become pretty darn effective at around 20 mph. Add a headwind or favourable crosswind to it and they are effective right off the bat. For this very reason even big airliners apply full aileron into the wind if there's a stronger crosswind. Rudder should always play a role, especially in the begining of the roll and just after liftoff (gyroscopic precession), but by no means should you only correct with the rudder, leaving the ailerons neutral, like is seen in most videos of the A2A Warbirds.
I guess I'll make a video showcasing the difference of both techniques in various high performance A2A aircraft. The way you described it is also spot on, it should be a good balance between rudder and aileron inputs. This is what I found gives me the best and most efficient takeoffs. Especially on narrow, unpaved strips.

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DHenriques_
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Re: Video - controlling the Mustang on takeoff

Post by DHenriques_ »

Lufthansa 380 wrote:
DHenriquesA2A wrote:
Lufthansa 380 wrote:A more proper technique for torque effect countering is applying right aileron and not just rudder. Applying only rudder will make your wheel slip and grip seideways into the ground. Since the properller is turning clockwise, newton's third law states that a counteracting force will be applying counterclockwise and thus putting more force on the left wheel, creating more friction/drag and therefore turning the airplane to the left. The most effective way to counteract this force is by applying right aileron (full deflection on the beginning of the roll and easing up as you accelerate). This of course does not take into account things like slipstream or other propeller induced effects, but the former even helps mitigating undesired effects anyway.
The thing to understand about aileron correction for torque ( which is correct as torque is indeed a roll correction and not a yaw correction) is that applying full aileron early in the takeoff roll is useless as there is no dynamic pressure available for the ailerons.
Rudder is the only corrective counter force available as power is applied. This is why power in the Mustang HAS to be applied carefully and slowly. The actual truth of it is that for the early part of the takeoff you have little to no corrective force available on those ailerons so the trick is to get through that initial power application and build up dynamic pressure for the ailerons through SPEED so they become useful to combat torque.
If a Mustang takeoff is performed correctly, torque will be the last of the left turning forces corrected for.
So the correct method is to use rudder initially and all the way through the takeoff roll and BLEND IN AILERON as speed allows.
Until that speed is there full aileron is useless.
My takeoff technique in the Mustang was always the same. Right rudder early on, stick just aft of neutral, power in slowly, blend in aileron to work with the rudder, rotate.
Dudley Henriques
Yes, agreed. But I'd say ailerons become pretty darn effective at around 20 mph. Add a headwind or favourable crosswind to it and they are effective right off the bat. For this very reason even big airliners apply full aileron into the wind if there's a stronger crosswind. Rudder should always play a role, especially in the begining of the roll and just after liftoff (gyroscopic precession), but by no means should you only correct with the rudder, leaving the ailerons neutral, like is seen in most videos of the A2A Warbirds.
I guess I'll make a video showcasing the difference of both techniques in various high performance A2A aircraft. The way you described it is also spot on, it should be a good balance between rudder and aileron inputs. This is what I found gives me the best and most efficient takeoffs. Especially on narrow, unpaved strips.
Perhaps in a J3 but absolutely not in a Mustang. 20mph affecting a roll correction through the small area of the ailerons on a 9 to 12 K lb airplane just doesn't happen. LOL Aileron into the wind if crosswind present is standard for all aircraft but as a torque correction you need dynamic pressure. Naturally, even in the Mustang, if crosswind is a factor, aileron into the wind as always. Killing windward lift is one thing. Killing torque is a whole different ball game.
To illustrate the point, consider a bounce scenario in the Mustang that occurs right at the stall angle of attack. The pilot applies power at the apex of the bounce where airspeed is minimal and angle of attack is high. This is the classic setup for the infamous torque roll that has killed many pilots flying the Mustang. As the power is applied there is not enough counter force available to the ailerons due to lack of dynamic pressure to counter the torque. And this is with stall airspeed present. If not enough aileron here to prevent a torque roll, it should be apparent that there is NO counter force available for torque at the beginning of a take off roll. This is why applying full aileron at the beginning of your takeoff roll is useless as a means of combating torque.
Crosswind yes. Torque no. You need airspeed to build up before ailerons are effective for torque control in a Mustang.

Dudley Henriques

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