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 Post subject: Re: Possible bug?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:39 pm 
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Sadly my FSX is almost entirely default, all I have are A2A aircraft, and two Alaska sceneries...

Joe


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 Post subject: Re: Possible bug?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:03 pm 
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Hello

I just climbed to 20.000 feet, accelerated, pulled the stick couple of times, and here are the results:

This sound happens often in a dive, 250 indicated airspeed or higher, pull on the stick all the way rapidely, and listen for it, checked with almost empty tanks and full, happens more frequently with low fuel, in my sound config it was a little hard to hear becouse of the engine sound, but it is audible.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible bug?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:14 pm 
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Ok, I think we are getting somewhere... Caldemeyn, can you record the exact altitude you hear the sound at, check weather for wind layers near that height, and see if you have a high altitude contrail when you shouldn't have one?

I just did a test, but couldn't get the sound... then I dove straight down and heard the sound loud and clear but pulling no G's at about 12,000 feet. I was probably accelerating near 300kts. I was able to get the sound 3 more times when going through the exact same altitude with high speed. I noticed a wind layer set at 10,000, 20 kts gusting to 30. After getting the sound I had a contrail which started at exactly 6,000 feet... it came on above and disappeared below...

I'm wondering if maybe at high speed I'm "impacting" the wind layer, triggering the sound and resetting the ground level somewhere deep inside the Spitfire's purple box??? I noticed another wind layer at 5,000 feet, 18 kts gusting to 23, and I had the tire sound near that altitude yesterday, also with an oddly low contrail....

The weather is all default, but this particular weather setting came with a pre-loaded flight that came with the Tongass Fjords scenery.

This is odd, but maybe with this information Cody or Darryl might be able to replicate it also?

Joe


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 Post subject: Re: Possible bug?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:27 pm 
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Location: Poland
There was no particular altitude, i made this climb, so i would have enough room for repeating turning and accelerations, after the test i was close to 12.000 feet, the weather was default, maybe it has something to do with windshifts, but i was only able to trigger it with rapid turning at high speed. :wink:

Purple box, ah you mean the awesomeness generator? :mrgreen:, i thought it was there to simulate the mass of the engine, or something similar, no real idea whats it is for.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible bug?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:31 pm 
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Yeah, I was thinking of steep turns, until I got the sound diving vertically without pulling on the stick... :shock:

The purple box to me is like the end of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade... 8) I'm a little afraid of finding out what is inside!!! :mrgreen:

Joe


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 Post subject: Re: Possible bug?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:53 pm 
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"The truth is out there" 8) I will look again this time for windshifts, for now we know it happens on high speed, in dives, in steep turns, or with sudden wind changes. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Possible bug?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:34 pm 
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Fuel sloshing in the tank? Did the Spitfires have baffles in the fuel tanks?


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 Post subject: Re: Possible bug?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:35 pm 
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No baffling, just a perforated stack in the lower tank.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible bug?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:19 pm 
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Caldemeyn wrote:
"The truth is out there" 8) I will look again this time for windshifts, for now we know it happens on high speed, in dives, in steep turns, or with sudden wind changes. :wink:


I've noticed this before as well... no biggie but found the thread previously mentioned...hopefully it'll get sorted

viewtopic.php?f=78&t=24288


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 Post subject: Re: Possible bug?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:51 am 
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wallydog, I'm glad you pointed out the original thread. Wind may be the factor, although at this point we've heard it at all different altitudes and G's (or lack there of).

It may be as simple as Scott and Lewis mentioned in the beginning, except perhaps the sound file linked to the effect is the wrong one. I think the only three common factors at this point are wind, high speed, and not too much fuel.

Either way I can verify that the sound which occurs is most certainly a tire, and not the sloshing of fuel....

While not a big problem, and certainly not a deal breaker or even something which detracts from the immersion, at this point I'm basically curious as to what it actually is!

Joe


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 Post subject: Re: Possible bug?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:15 am 
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Agreed and I will try to replicate it myself and get it looked at if subsequent updates (including BETA) haven't fixed it.

Just to confirm..best way to hunt for it..

a. Wind layers
b. High Speed,
c. low fuel
d. high G

I'll try it over the weekend


Darryl

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 Post subject: Re: Possible bug?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:38 pm 
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Location: Finland
I've also experienced it numerous times. Also the last time I flew it:
Spitfire Mark I, descent from 25000ft toward EFTP downwind leg in a relatively steep but safe dive, prop full coarse 2200rpm, -2 psi, 300-320 mph indicated. Somewhere in the low altitudes but prior to me pulling the stick there was a wind layer and horizontal jerk accompanied with tire sound. "Fair weather" stock weather. Top tank empty, bottom half full.

I think I've had it with Mark II as well, diving through cloud layers in stormy weather. Both tanks full. It probably has nothing to do with fuel quantity: it's just that it happens during high speed altitude changes. This usually means "descent" because ascent is slow. It also happens that usually you do the descent when you are low on fuel. (Unless you cheater yourself up there in slew mode.)

Considering that wind speeds are (roughly) paraller Earth's surface... horizontal G-forces must be the culprit? At least the last time I dived, I had my wings level so wind change shouldn't have caused any vertical G. If it's not about lateral force itself, it could also be that a such jolts tend to create a twisting torque around yaw axis (due to vertical stabilizer catching the wind better than the heavy front). The wheels being housed inside the wings in horizontal position could retain their state of "not spinning" due to inertia, whilst the aircraft does so (due to external forces during wind layer change), making a screeching sound when coming into contact with landing gear housing.

Ok, I'm assuming a lot about accusim now. Then again: I haven't been able to replicate the screeching sound by retracting gears without stopping the wheels by short application of brakes, so I don't know if screeching against landing gear housing is even possible in accusim modeling.. I don't really know how hardcore accusim internals are. But you do. Just my 5 cents.

__


There's an inconsistent bug with the pneumatic system. The plane starts with an unpressurized system. Ok.

When I start the engine, pneumatic tank charges, as it should. I shut it down. Pressure stays... as it should (for a reasonable duration).

But, the glitch starts here: if I move flaps up and down repetitively, the pressure only dips temporarily and go back up when flaps are raised. The air just doesn't run out. Actually it drops a bit more than it returns on raising them again, and if I really flip the switch dozens of times, it gets to nearly zero, and same if I pump the brakes dozen and dozens of times... but if I stop it (with engine turned off): it slowly regenerates until it's full again!

I click "cold start" and pressure goes to zero. I start to hear a hissing noise (lower pitch than the noise of filling the system from SHIFT+4 window): the pressure is regenerating a slow pace. The pneumatic system hissing after "cold start" reset is an immersion killer. Luckily I can fill the system up in SHIFT+4 to get a quiet cockpit...


___


The previous two bugs have been present all the time. There's also a new bug (or a feature?) that came along with the latest patch:

If you cut the fuel valves and then pull the idle cut-off but release it quickly before the engine stops, it never catches again (unless you open fuel valves before the propeller stops). If you pull cut-off ring with fuel valve(s) open, it will catch again if ring is released too soon.

This is a new bug (or feature) as before the latest patch, with fuel valves closed, pulling the cut-off ring had only effect as long as the ring was kept pulled. It's probably got to do something with the new fuel pump module (which also broke down the engine backfire feature).

The new fuel pump module (and whatever tweaks were made), despite it "breaking" the need to prime the engine, did however make the start-up more dynamic. Never does the engine start the same way. Love it. Hope to see the glitches fixed some day, though, even though they don't annoy me that much... except that pneumatic bug. That one really annoys me.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible bug?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:19 pm 
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A2A Spitfire Crew Chief
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Noise

First of all, I am more certain by the day that the screeching IS in fact the undercarriage floating in its locks. This is being looked at and there is some work being done on the hydraulic and other systems. FSX windlayers and turbulance (and OAT) are prone to give "interesting" results (read : crap) . Changes in wind layers will however cause a vertical component due to differences in lift, more or less, attributable to the sudden change in "airspeed", or more correctly, speed through the air mass at THAT particular moment.

Oh, one point courtesy of Dudley, on a question I put very early on in testing...it is a VERY bad idea to touch the brakes to stop wheel spin in these high performance aircraft. The brakes are fairly delicate being designed more to slow the aircraft or manoeuvre it rather than to stop it. Accordingly the use of brakes to stop the wheels when bringing up the gear can cause the brake pads to fuse. This will, if it happens, result in an almost certainly fatal accident on touchdown. I, like almost every other GA pilot, learned to touch brakes to smooth the transition for passengers (even on aircraft with non-retractable gear) and stop some of the strange noises etc that can unnerve inexperienced fliers but it should not be used in these aircraft. As an aside, I never do it anymore in any aircraft, since Dudley's cautionary tale.

The Spitfire does not generally need braking on landing if you use correct technique. It is however vital to peg approach speeds, touchdown angle and heading and to make sure that the throttle closes completely before touchdown. Even an excess of idle rpm (set by the ground crew) needs to be tested for at preflight, as ANY higher than normal idle will cause the Spit to float for miles. Using brakes to cover bad technique is sloppy, lazy and dangerous. The Spitfire I and II had very marginal braking at best.


SRC-O

The fuel slow running cut out effectively "chokes" the engine, making for a more orderly shut down than merely leaving the thing to run out of fuel. The reason that the engine will not "catch" again if the fuel valves are closed is that the SRC-O has dropped the fuel pressure too low for the engine to repressurise the system, given that no MORE fuel can be drawn into the lines. If the fuel taps are open, the system can draw fuel from the tanks to recharge the lines. The behaviour is correct.

Pneumatics
There are some inconsistencies and compromises that had to be made. In reality though, every attempt is made to keep some pressure in the system as a Spitfire is perfectly capable of jumping chocks even at quite moderate rpm. Thus ground crew are assumed to recharge the system whenever possible. If there is no pressure, the engine will provide it on startup. That being said, there is no reason for anyone to sit operating flaps repeatedly, or brakes and the only time the lack of pressure would actually affect you is once you are moving...at which point the engine has charged the system anyway. Where compromises need to be made, they are, where possible, made in areas outside normal operations. So if there is a choice between making it work properly whilst flying OR making it work properly when repeated needlessly on a Tuesday by a one legged dwarf who has two maiden aunts named Clarice, the choice is pretty easy.

Best practice is to treat the Spit as a real aircraft.....my routine is this:

1. Load Flight
2. Shift 3 to set cold start (unless saved that way, more usual)
3. Shift 7 to check condition and compression
4. Shift 4 to replenish stores
5. Shift 3 to set chocks, hold tail etc
6. Enter cockpit and begin prestart.

Doing this avoids anomalies, maintains maximum reality and ensures a safe baseline for ops. Nothing different to what I would do in the real world (subject to the computer specific tasks).


Darryl

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 Post subject: Re: Possible bug?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:48 pm 
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Wheels floating in the locks... makes sense to me based on the conditions we know...

I found that VERY interesting, about tapping the brakes after takeoff... I was taught to do this in my old Cessna 172, despite the fixed gear (as you mentioned), so I translated this into the sim without ever thinking twice! Now I've never had my brakes fail upon landing, but a few times one or the other of my brakes has turned to yellow in the hangar, and I've been told off by my crew chief... I always wondered why that happened, since I almost never use my brakes when landing, and often the only time I need to touch them is when parking.

Thanks for that info, Darryl and Dudley, now my one legged dwarf friend (his name is Christopher) and I need to re-learn how to takeoff our warbirds!!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Joe


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 Post subject: Re: Possible bug?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:40 am 
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:D :D


(and my regards to Christopher)

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