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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 11:55 pm 
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Hello everyone

I was just after some advice. How does one navigate on the Spitfire as there is no NDB /VORs. Sure we have VFR but I was recently flying on snow conditions in Duxford (Episode 48 on my Twitch stream) and I found I got lost a lot and had to keep checking the map which prompted me to think..... how do you navigate WITHOUT the map if you can't see well.

The only way I can think of is you need to set heading and speed and use the timer on board. So at a certain speed at a certain heading it should take X minutes to reach a waypoint. Not that accurate but MIGHT be enough to get you close to an airport maybe.

Ideas ? or should we just not fly a Spitfire in Storm snowy conditions ? It was fun though :D

Going to look up more on dead reckoning bit pretty sure you need clearer conditions for that. I also have NO wish to modify the panels to put on a GPS and I don't want to use A2A's built in map either, I'd like to do it a little more realistically.

Thanks in advance everone especially kill ratio :)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:25 am 
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Location: The South West of the large island off the north coast of Tasmania
Yes Mate,

Just simple old school navigation....map, compass and watch.

The important thing is to allow for wind drift, based on forecast winds. The problem is that the winds are not always exactly as forecast.

Bad weather (read: loss of sight of ground) makes point navigation VERY hit and miss. A one degree error over 100 miles will give a 1 mile error, which is not a big deal. But I find that, as Taylor says, I can fly the P8 to within only about 5 degrees accuracy. So a one hour flight at 200mph will put you anything up to 10 miles off target. That is why when I fly a PRU mission, I study the target and get to know the area around it....major road, rail junctions, rivers, towns etc.

Standard practice when lost using old school nav is to find where you were last CERTAIN of your position and then draw a circle around that at the maximum distance (at your speed) that you could have travelled from that point in the elapsed time...you are somewhere in that circle. You can instantly see that if you are out of sight of ground, you are in trouble!! Drop below cloud and your "circle" is the time/speed from where you last knew..which could be a BIG circle!!

That is why you read stories of Luftwaffe aircraft getting lost over France and accidentally landing in the UK.

The best you can do if lost is to conduct a systematic grid search until you find a familiar feature.
Always read MAP to GROUND, not the other way around!

Knowing what "should" be going under you at any point on the route is important , not just knowing what the destination looks like. Finally, if you can't get to see the ground, or are too low to see far, you are in trouble, as simple and hopeless as that!

Which is one reason why when flying for real, I NEVER use "sucker holes", that is, holes in cloud that you climb up through and kid yourself that you can keep the ground in sight.

THEY are dug into clouds by the Devil for the specific purpose of collecting new pilot souls

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:06 am 
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:(

THis is not good news. So I need to plot and time speed for turns............... oh dear :(

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:15 am 
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THEY are dug into clouds by the Devil for the specific purpose of collecting new pilot souls


Nothing more truthful than that!!
But, the Spit is a dream to fly......
Chris

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:38 am 
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But without NDB / VOR etc a nightmare to navigate if we have to calculate speed and time each turn and then time the leg in the hope we will get there. :(

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:06 am 
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You are right. Loosing your bearings can be fatal. Whenever the topic of 'dead reckoning' crops up, I am reminded of the fate of the Lancastrian Stardust. I recently got to know a chap who flew them and it is quite raw in his mind.

Stardust Incident

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:32 am 
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bladerunner900 wrote:
I am reminded of the fate of the Lancastrian Stardust. I recently got to know a chap who flew them and it is quite raw in his mind.
He must have some interesting stories to tell Steve. For those in the U.K. a rather good documentary covering the Stardust incident can be seen on the BBC iPlayer as part of its permanent Horizon archive.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0 ... isappeared

Cheers,
Nick


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:45 am 
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Nick M wrote:
He must have some interesting stories to tell Steve. For those in the U.K. a rather good documentary covering the Stardust incident can be seen on the BBC iPlayer as part of its permanent Horizon archive.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0 ... isappeared

Cheers,
Nick

Yes. He's a hell of a nice chap with many humorous tales to tell, but don't get him started on pubs. He knows the history on all the pubs (about 30) in the area and will talk for hours about them. :lol:

Thanks for the link Nick. I shall watch it with great interest.

Cheers.
Steve.

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Last edited by bladerunner900 on Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:35 am 
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Sorry, I just don't buy an aircraft disappearance that is navigational error and not international intrigue or alien abduction.....obviously a cover up!!!

Still at least we ALL still know MH370 was taken by aliens to steal the secret Chinese technology, being smuggled to Iran, that was on board.

NEXT you will want us to believe that Amelia simply got lost and crashed into the sea??...or that there aren't Spitfires buried all over Burma.

Ok, going to add a couple of extra layers of tin foil now...goodnight.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:54 am 
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One theory about STENDEC is that it was use by Merchant shipping during WWII, some being equipped with rocket assist launched P40's or Spits. When ditching, it is said they would send

Severe Turbulence Encountered Now Descending Emergency Crash-landing.

But it's just hearsay and can't be proved.

Cheers.
Steve.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:26 am 
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Location: The South West of the large island off the north coast of Tasmania
Styggron wrote:
But without NDB / VOR etc a nightmare to navigate if we have to calculate speed and time each turn and then time the leg in the hope we will get there. :(


Not a nightmare Mate, just "pilotage".

You would be surprised, in the real world, how exponentially your navigation prowess improves in proportion to your attachment to your skin.

The old adage "There are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are no old, bold pilots" conjures up images of flying through barns, under bridges or extreme aerobatics vs pottering around within gliding distance of the landing field. In REALITY it has MUCH more to do with good, solid navigation and airmanship.

I have done some truly extreme aerobatics (up to and including the Lomcevak) under calculated conditions, for, as it happens, about 1/2 my total flying hours. . . but have NEVER gone up into a Sucker Hole. I have flown fixed pitch, low performance aircraft, in aeros, for a good deal of time. . . BUT am one of the few allowed to actually take control of a friend's (who is the most brilliant, but careful, living pilot I have known) aircraft. I regularly run 15 minutes late for work . . . but can navigate to a 1 to 2 minute tolerance in an aircraft over 500 miles.

I am (as a straight spirits drinker from 15 years old to now..let's call it 35 years and say no more . . .) MUCH more likely to die from Esophageal Cancer than from an aircraft accident . . . BUT have twice been very close to "buying it" and both from a combination of enthusiasm and bad luck.

The point is :

((Time + Distance + Luck)- Risk)/Good Sense = Chance of Dying

Chance of dying x (area flying/ good sense) = REAL chance of Death

You will note GOOD SENSE repeated in the calculation.

Apply that to your flying and you will (probably) survive..I promise, (fingers crossed) and hope to die.

NOT included in my own "career figure" is as a PASSENGER on two occasions of the aircraft and one occasion of the pilot of the following :


https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/2477177/ae2009050.pdf

(not, quite obviously, on the applicable date!!)

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:32 am 
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Location: The South West of the large island off the north coast of Tasmania
bladerunner900 wrote:
One theory about STENDEC is that it was use by Merchant shipping during WWII, some being equipped with rocket assist launched P40's or Spits. When ditching, it is said they would send

Severe Turbulence Encountered Now Descending Emergency Crash-landing.

But it's just hearsay and can't be proved.

Cheers.
Steve.


Hmmm. Interesting.

I think a transposition of "descending" is much more likely.
;)

( Oh, Hurricanes on C.A.Ms, not Spitfires :) )

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:16 pm 
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Killratio wrote:
Hmmm. Interesting.

I think a transposition of "descending" is much more likely.
;)

( Oh, Hurricanes on C.A.Ms, not Spitfires :) )
Yes, I was dubious about Spits too. More like Hurricanes I thought. Here's the article I found about STENDEC.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/vanished/sten_010208.html

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:48 pm 
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Nice article,

Cheers for the link.

D

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:59 am 
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bladerunner900 wrote:
You are right. Loosing your bearings can be fatal. Whenever the topic of 'dead reckoning' crops up, I am reminded of the fate of the Lancastrian Stardust. I recently got to know a chap who flew them and it is quite raw in his mind.

Stardust Incident


none of that helps when it is snowy and foggy and you have to fly. Really need at least an NDB :(

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Aircraft Factory Avro Anson, Albatros DIII,Heinkel He-219, F4U Corsair, P51H Mustang, Avro 504
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