cockpit canopy needs to extend further

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burns
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cockpit canopy needs to extend further

Post by burns »

Using FlyInside with the Spitfire, I can see clear portions of the canopy on the left and right while looking straight ahead. The tint of the canopy needs to extend further back please.

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Killratio
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Re: cockpit canopy needs to extend further

Post by Killratio »

This is a well known side effect of moving the viewpoint too far back in the cockpit. The Spitfire cockpit is a small, cramped space. The panel is right "in your face".

If you can see past the rear edges of the canopy, then you are outside of the cockpit area. The model won't allow you to do that and maintain "realism" because it isn't realistic to do so. The model allows you to look around 360 degrees perfectly well, as long as you are within the cockpit area.
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burns
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Re: cockpit canopy needs to extend further

Post by burns »

I am on the center of the seat...using VR with a HTC Vive and flyinside.
Location is proper.

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Re: cockpit canopy needs to extend further

Post by Killratio »

Please post a screenshot of the problem. The perspective of the panel is easily verifiable. ( looking forward)
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burns
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Re: cockpit canopy needs to extend further

Post by burns »

There are no screen shots. It's VR which means what is on the screen isn't the same as what you see.

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Re: cockpit canopy needs to extend further

Post by Killratio »

Ok, So try looking straight ahead....if you see anything other than a "normal" perspective you are outside the cockpit. Particularly if you can look straight down and see the middle of the seat, you are behind the proper place.

I use a head tracking device and sit in a full 1:1 Spitfire Cockpit... The model matches that perspective exactly. You need to move your viewpoint forward.

Basically, if you can see any more than the front windscreen , gunsight and part of the top of the panel when looking straight forward, you are too far back. Is that what you see? Or do you see the canopy at your sides...because until you actually turn your head that way, you will only see those in your extreme peripheral vision and NOT clearly. Normal forward view will put the windscreen frame at your 10and 2 o'clock positions. From there you will not clearly see side slabs.


That is what it looks like sitting in a Spitfire. I would guess that any decent VR should give exactly that perspective..as that is, by definition, virtual reality.

If you adjust your position to get that perspective and then turn you head, what do you see?
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Nick - A2A
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Re: cockpit canopy needs to extend further

Post by Nick - A2A »

burns wrote:[...] I can see clear portions of the canopy on the left and right while looking straight ahead.
Sounds to me like a 'clipping' artefact from the zoom setting being excessively wide rather than an eye point shift. However, the natural tendency of the eye point to rotate outwards when turning the head left or right would exaggerate this too.

Could be that the Spit in particular doesn't lend itself well to VR platforms because of this 'clipping' limitation of the host sim coupled with the small dimensions of its cockpit.

One (somewhat draughty) solution would be to fly with the canopy open. :wink:

Nick

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Re: cockpit canopy needs to extend further

Post by Killratio »

Thanks Nick,

that was exactly the effect I was trying to describe.

Basically, I am 5'11" and if I lean my head anywhere outside my shoulder width it would hit the canopy.

THIS shows a realistic view..probably still a little far back for a "concentrating on flying" view.:

https://youtu.be/7R1t70Qqauk?t=3m44s

cheers

Darryl
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Re: cockpit canopy needs to extend further

Post by Killratio »

The seat, I hasten to add, has up and down but no forward/back adjustment. Also, the pilot's headrest is a very good illustration of exactly where the pilot's head is NOT when flying...it's only useful in a "bracing" position. Why they are often missing and were dropped altogether later on.

When lowered a short pilot will be looking straight through the gun sight, a tall one has to crouch down.


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the next one shows roughly where you have to be to look to the rear, albeit, again, with the seat set high.
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And lest it be thought to be only tall men who had problems...
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And this, from slightly behind and to the left of the pilot's head position in flight.

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So you need to set up your VR goggles to give that view, crowded in and claustrophobic and you will find the clipping disappears. Any other view is not, realistically, possible in a Spit without, as Nick has said, the canopy open. Put on the original canopy as per K5054 and you couldn't even look backwards to any significant degree!

There is significantly more room in other fighters, and even in the relatively tiny Extra 300, I never banged my head in that a single time, during the severest aeros up to and including Lomcevaks, inverted spins, snap rolls etc. Even making relatively large stick movements and looking back over shoulder etc.
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Nick - A2A
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Re: cockpit canopy needs to extend further

Post by Nick - A2A »

Killratio wrote:The seat, I hasten to add, has up and down but no forward/back adjustment.
This makes me think that lowering the eyepoint just a touch in the sim may be a good way to mitigate the clipping for VR headset users. Moving the head down the equivalent of just an inch or two would move the eyepoint away from the narrowest upper part of the canopy.

Also, as Darryl mentions, making sure the 'blown' canopy is fitted in the maintenance hangar is probably a very good idea in this case.

Nice photos by the way - presumably not regulation issue sunnies for the ATA pilot! :)

Cheers,
Nick

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Re: cockpit canopy needs to extend further

Post by burns »

In VR you are closer to the instruments in a visual way but seem to have a larger field of view.
For instance, I can glance down to see the panel rather than move my head. I've used TIR before.
I know what you are talking about. With VR, the whole display is 'different'. When I turn my head the least little bit the clear glass portions show.
Here's a youtube clip that shows it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6zoVdRVg_A
Good view around 3:30 minutes.
He looks far back but when viewed through the visor you aren't. Notice how the clear portions show when he turns his head.

Blown canopy? Only thing I can change in my hanger is the prop. Am I missing something?
I've got the 5/9/16 update.

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Re: cockpit canopy needs to extend further

Post by Killratio »

Ok,

Cheers, the video helps a lot. I think we can sort it out, at least as far as "reality" goes.

First, the straight ahead view is completely unrealistic. It is a combination of looking straight ahead,
Glancing up and glancing down, all at the same time. Now I can see why they would set it like this, as it means that you CAN do this without moving your head. But it results in a completely unrealistic view the 90% of the time that you are not "glancing", as the whole field of view is there in clear detail.

Until they actually track eye movement in VR, I can't see a solution for that, just compromise. Just as with trackir you compromise on reduced movement, here you would need to compromise on the glancing...having some head movement to achieve it and to zoom in the view to cut out the extremes.

The VR is moving your head outside of the cockpit. If you look at 2.00 and just after, that it probably the closest to what you would actually see..but...you can see how the viewpoint shifts outside the frame of the windscreen, actually cutting through the frame on the left eye viewpoint. Each time the "end of the world" appears on the canopy, you can see from the viewpoint that it has moved back. When he looks down at the seat, the viewpoint is at least 6 to 8 inches behind where it is in reality...more like where the back of you head would be normally, rather than where your eyes would be if you physically tilted your head forward.

I suspect this comes from using a fixed eyepoint rather than tracking the leaning that happens to look towards different places..or at least not quite tracking it correctly...much as TrackIR shows some errors in that way.

Also, when you do glance when flying, it is almost always to "acquire" what you are looking at...head movement, however small or involuntary, tends to follow as you focus on whatever it is you are looking at.

So, can you firstly follow Nick's suggestion of moving "down" a bit and also zoom in a bit to reduce the amount of panel and sky above the mirror that you can see. Report the results if you will, then we can see what happens. But at the moment, most of what I see in the video is the viewpoint shifting outside of the cockpit, not necessarily because it is "set" outside but because of the way it handles the wearer's movement.

As an example, I suspect that if you look straight up, the viewpoint pivots straight up...but that is not what your head does in the Spitfire..you would need to lean forward a little to do it. Likewise, you can't just swivel your head to look back, you need to lean forward and rotate the opposite shoulder...

I hope that makes sense?

Regards

Darryl
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Re: cockpit canopy needs to extend further

Post by Killratio »

Oh..canopy...

You should see the blown canopy sitting on the ground in the maintenance hangar if you fly the Spitfire I . It is automatically on in the Spitfire II from memory.

D
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burns
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Re: cockpit canopy needs to extend further

Post by burns »

You need to try VR. The view in any captured frame or video shows the modified view which is distorted to accommodate one eye only. The image is stretched/squeezed to a distorted form which projects perfectly when viewed under VR conditions. I see less then 4 of the nuts along the edge of the canopy frame per side. IE 3 per side below the canopy latch. If I look straight ahead all is fine.
When I rotate to look left or right I see the clipping unless I lean in the opposite direction.
In VR, I see the edges of the cockpit very close to where I image my shoulders to be. I am also as forward, if not more, than the photos showed. Unfortunately I know of no way to capture an undistorted image as seen in the visor.

Isn't there a way, in a future release, to reduce the clipping?

Guess I'm flying the MarkII since there is no canopy available on the floor.

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Re: cockpit canopy needs to extend further

Post by Killratio »

The clipping and the distance the canopy goes back relies on the model, so I don't think it can be extended without affecting the proportions of the model. ..but I will ask.

*Can you try lowering the eyepoint as low as it will go? Maybe then you can zoom out a little?

What you are describing... "look sideways, need to lean opposite"... certainly confirms for me that the viewpoint is being pushed outside the cockpit slightly...leaning brings it back inside, if you see what I mean? The VR is obviously using a range of motion (of the eyepoint) that doesn't play well with the extremely cramped confines of the Spit cockpit. For this reason I don't think extending the cockpit back will solve all (any?) of the problem. It would probably need also to be widened.

It would be interesting to hear what exactly you see (in your current view, with clipping evident) AS the canopy opens and closes?

1. Do the canopy frames partly disappear? Or is it only the rear edge of the canopy?
2. Does the point at which rear edge cuts out move forward as you close the canopy/back as opened?
3. On the right, does the breakout panel on the left cut out and gradually "appear" from the clipped edge...or is it whole all the time and the clipping only appears as the canopy closes completely?

Even if the canopy can not be extended, we should be able to find a "sweet spot" where the eyepoint stays within boundries.

Try the suggestion at * above. Next, I would try moving the viewpoint forward and then zooming out to "re balance" the desired position. This may sound like the "same" picture and it is but it may keep the viewpoint within the cockpit when turning your head, whilst making everything LOOK the same. I know when I changed for 3 screens wide view to a single large screen, I fiddled with that to make the TrackIR perform better when only making small movements of the head.

regards

Darryl
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