Help with fast climb - can't break 15 minutes to 20,000 ft

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Killratio
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Re: Help with fast climb - can't break 15 minutes to 20,000

Post by Killratio »

To add choice of airscrew to WOP Spitfire when the Accusim model isn't installed:

http://a2asimulations.com/public/update ... t_dats.zip

and extract it to your DOCUMENTS\A2A\FSX\Spitfire folder, over-writing what is there.

"Utterly DESTROYED my previous record of 15m31s"

Good show old chap!!


Flaps and Undercarriage:

Undercarriage 160mph or below,

Flaps 140mph or below.

U/C disrupt airflow to the radiator while lowering/raising and when lowered.

Undercarriage will only interrupt oil cooler airflow during part of extension/retraction while the leg angles in front of the cooler inlet. Because oil heats/cools much more slowly, you will never notice this unless something goes wrong...like the day I busted gear retraction speed and the left gear did not fully retract...giving me oil temps 5C higher than normal during the whole flight.

Flaps will disrupt airflow into the radiator and oil cooler drastically. Again, oil temp will not usually increase much because the flaps are not down that long...but in case of slow flight, it is recommended to use lowered undercarriage instead of lowered flaps due to temperature issues caused.

Most people I see boiling the Spit on landing could avoid it simply by lowering flaps later and getting them up sooner after landing.


Yes, it IS all modelled!
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Re: Help with fast climb - can't break 15 minutes to 20,000

Post by Killratio »

Piper_EEWL wrote:
Thanks Darryl. It was pleasant with your instructions : This was at about 15.000ft. I'm actually quite amazed at how well the temperatures can be maintained in that high power climb!

You're welcome.

Well that'll be the climbrate if you're keeping the speed steady at 162mph. I wonder how big the impact is!? Did you ever do any trials on that? I'm guessing the difference is rather hard to notice?.

The main thing with temps is to get off as quick as possible. You will notice a huge difference in temp management if you try 140mph...but it is doable within 130-135C...ish... But get off at 110-120 and start that climb and it is a real bear to manage!

Gold Star! Yes, by my count, the radiator open will cost you 20-60 seconds to 20,000ft depending on how consistently you fly.
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Re: Help with fast climb - can't break 15 minutes to 20,000

Post by Styggron »

Killratio wrote:To add choice of airscrew to WOP Spitfire when the Accusim model isn't installed:

http://a2asimulations.com/public/update ... t_dats.zip

and extract it to your DOCUMENTS\A2A\FSX\Spitfire folder, over-writing what is there.

"Utterly DESTROYED my previous record of 15m31s"

Good show old chap!!


Flaps and Undercarriage:

Undercarriage 160mph or below,

Flaps 140mph or below.

U/C disrupt airflow to the radiator while lowering/raising and when lowered.

Undercarriage will only interrupt oil cooler airflow during part of extension/retraction while the leg angles in front of the cooler inlet. Because oil heats/cools much more slowly, you will never notice this unless something goes wrong...like the day I busted gear retraction speed and the left gear did not fully retract...giving me oil temps 5C higher than normal during the whole flight.

Flaps will disrupt airflow into the radiator and oil cooler drastically. Again, oil temp will not usually increase much because the flaps are not down that long...but in case of slow flight, it is recommended to use lowered undercarriage instead of lowered flaps due to temperature issues caused.

Most people I see boiling the Spit on landing could avoid it simply by lowering flaps later and getting them up sooner after landing.


Yes, it IS all modelled!
This will allow me to swap props then ?
I have to say I am tempted to put on Accu-sim just to see. I am not keen on it because I found the accu-sim on J3 SO incredibly disappointing (AI Heidi does not do much) and plus it might make flying the Spitfire ultra hard.

People have told me I can simply unstall the whole spit and just reinstall and second time round do not put on accu-sim. The control panel though seems to have an accu-sim on and off function. Why others don't have it I have no idea some people like the options :)
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Re: Help with fast climb - can't break 15 minutes to 20,000

Post by Piper_EEWL »

Killratio wrote: The main thing with temps is to get off as quick as possible. You will notice a huge difference in temp management if you try 140mph...but it is doable within 130-135C...ish... But get off at 110-120 and start that climb and it is a real bear to manage!

Gold Star! Yes, by my count, the radiator open will cost you 20-60 seconds to 20,000ft depending on how consistently you fly.
I figured that it will get harder the slower you climb. And naturally the hotter you start out the more difficult. But then it wouldn't be the "usual" case to start out with 120C would it?

20-60seconds? Wow that's more then I expected. I'm note sure I would be able to measure the difference with my skills yet :wink:
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Re: Help with fast climb - can't break 15 minutes to 20,000

Post by Piper_EEWL »

New try with the MkIIa with the fixed pitch Weybridge prop. From EGSU with yesterday's weather at 1500Z. Full fuel.

I started the clock before I started the engine and then waited till oil had reached more than 15C and coolant was 30C. Then I took off with full throttle.

Initial climb at 160mph. Above approximately 15kft I reduced the climb speed from 160mph to 140mph because the radiator temps allowed it.

I came out at 20kt with 105C coolant, 80C oil temp.

Total time including the startup and (admittedly short) warmup was 9min10sec.

I'm guessing the easy temperature management is a result of the oat.
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Re: Help with fast climb - can't break 15 minutes to 20,000

Post by Killratio »

Piper_EEWL wrote:
I started the clock before I started the engine and then waited till oil had reached more than 15C and coolant was 30C.

9min10sec[/b].

I'm guessing the easy temperature management is a result of the oat.
That and starting while the rad temp was 30C below allowable open up :) :) :)


"Normal to start at 120C"...no but plenty do have about that by the time they get airborne if they mess around on the ground.

Usually with engine checks etc, I'm north of 110C as I become airborne, using takeoff boost of 12 lbs/sq in. ( Oh Bugger..there goes one of my trade secrets, I was hoping to make up 4-5 seconds on all of you with that little trick. :) )

I haven't done the Watts climb in the Spitfire II (I don't fly with it as it is only "technically" available) and it is 5 years since I did the flight testing with the Spitfire I with Watts fitted ...so I will have to try to find some time later this week to have a go.

best

D
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Re: Help with fast climb - can't break 15 minutes to 20,000

Post by Piper_EEWL »

Killratio wrote: That and starting while the rad temp was 30C below allowable open up :) :) :)
Oh really? :oops: I'm guessing I was only checking the oil temp because that's the only one mentioned in the pilots notes to be above 15C before takeoff. When I usually fly I never get to take off before the coolant reaches 70-80C. It's usually that warm by the time I get to the runway and get done with the runup and checks. I don't remember there being a minimum coolant temp for takeoff. I guess I should go back and re-read the manual :wink:

I'm guessing in war times they would not have cared that much about the coolant temp prior to takeoff though!? I mean you have the enemy approaching and every second counts right?
Killratio wrote: Usually with engine checks etc, I'm north of 110C as I become airborne, using takeoff boost of 12 lbs/sq in. ( Oh Bugger..there goes one of my trade secrets, I was hoping to make up 4-5 seconds on all of you with that little trick. :) )

I haven't done the Watts climb in the Spitfire II (I don't fly with it as it is only "technically" available) and it is 5 years since I did the flight testing with the Spitfire I with Watts fitted ...so I will have to try to find some time later this week to have a go.
12lbs/sp in?? :shock: that's got to be pretty much firewalling it no? I haven't seen that before.

I'm still pretty impressed by the performance of the fixed pitch prop. Yes of course the takeoff distance is longer but once you're up to speed she performs great.

Happy flying
B377&COTS, J3 Cub, B-17G, Spitfire, P-40, P-51D, C172, C182, Pa28, Pa24, T-6 Texan, L-049&COTS, Bonanza V35B

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Re: Help with fast climb - can't break 15 minutes to 20,000

Post by Killratio »

Styggron wrote:
1 This will allow me to swap props then ?

2 I have to say I am tempted to put on Accu-sim just to see. I am not keen on it because I found the accu-sim on J3 SO incredibly disappointing (AI Heidi does not do much) and plus it might make flying the Spitfire ultra hard.

3 People have told me I can simply uninstall the whole spit and just reinstall and second time round do not put on accu-sim.

1. Yes.

2. The difference is three fold between the Spitfire and the Cub Accu-sims. First, the Cub is an incredibly simple aeroplane...so there is not a lot of complex system modelling..there aren't those systems in the real aircraft!! It is stick and rudder WYSIWYG flying. Second and related.. the Cub has the most incredibly accurate and delicate flight modelling (dare I say slightly better than the Spitfire !!) but the average sim pilot will not appreciate the full depth of it because they lack the real world experience. The sim pilots I've talked to DO however love it. Third and last...Heidi. She is a nice bit of early AI, I guess, but personally I don't fly with her. (something to do with having enough screaming women in my life, I suspect :) ). If she is all that Accu-sim is judged by on the Cub, then I would agree that for ME she wouldn't justify it, certainly. But I love flying the Accu-sim Cub because in so many ways, it is the closest I have ever come to "real" flying on the computer.

Now with the Spitfire, Accu-sim runs so much deeper because there are so many more systems in that more advanced aeroplane. Your actions while flying have reasonably immediate and observable consequences. You know Accu-sim is there and working, it is in your face. Getting to 20,000ft in a great time is a great achievement and very satisfying. But knowing that one way or another you will get there, no matter what you do, detracts from the experience for me. Flying by the numbers and watching exactly how far I can push the limits is vastly better. Knowing that one mistake could end in a dangerously hot/damaged engine and the end of the attempt, thereby wasting half an hour of my, these days, severely limited stick time, is 3/4 of the fun. People make BIG statements about Accu-sim damage, both positive and negative but for me it isn't about damage, because I hardly ever see it. Wear over time, yes. More wear if I am less careful, yes. But I can't remember the last time I accidentally caught an engine on fire, or damaged something on landing (except on wholly inappropriate jungle strips in PNG). You said, I believe, that you enjoyed my story about the little jaunt where I got caught in low cloud in "The Jungles" area and had to fight to survive? But if you went back to that story in a "non accusim" environment, it would read. "Kagi disappeared in cloud and made a bad decision on an alternative, which also disappeared, so firewalled the throttle and climbed up through cloud and back to Kokoda. Same Model, same look, and with Accu-feel, much the same FEEL...but a totally different experience without 20 minutes of a "virtually" terrifying fight for survival. Actually, of all my Accu-sim flying experiences, i think that one best encapsulates the whole value of Accu-sim.

3. Yes.

Best regards

D
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Re: Help with fast climb - can't break 15 minutes to 20,000

Post by Killratio »

Piper_EEWL wrote:
"That and starting while the rad temp was 30C below allowable open up :) :) :)......"

I don't remember there being a minimum coolant temp for takeoff. I guess I should go back and re-read the manual :wink:

I'm guessing in war times they would not have cared that much about the coolant temp prior to takeoff though!? I mean you have the enemy approaching and every second counts right?

12lbs/sp in?? :shock: that's got to be pretty much firewalling it no? I haven't seen that before.
g

Minimum for "opening up" not take off. So idle until temps are 15C oil, 60C Rad and THEN you can do your runup checks, taxi etc. For the Spitfire I it is even worse... 70C!!

You're right. On a real scramble the limits would be monitored but not strictly adhered to. Having said that, a Spitfire that arrives at 20,000ft with it's radiator at 140C and having already boiled off a heap of fluid, is not going to do well in a "00 to the wall" dogfight. In fact, to quote my dear old Irish Grandmother, they are about as much good as a one legged man at an a$$ kicking contest. Normally, the Ack Emmas (erks) would have run up the engine in advance and done most of the preflight checks. That heated the oil (which cools down and heats up much more slowly than the Rad) and gave the pilots a clear run to check minima and go while the rad stayed at a half reasonable temp. .

12 lbs/sq in ...what, did you think we just put that red tab on the Throttle body for Rob to show off his 3d rendering skills?? :) :)

12 is the maximum boost for takeoff on 100 octane fuel. One thing that no modern operator knew about, as they would NEVER use it, nor could I, to my great shame and after considerable scouring of drawings, manuals etc etc etc, find info about, was exactly HOW the takeoff concession was physically "gained". The Red Tab was safety wired and it is implied, in wartime, only used in Combat Emergency. The takeoff concession LOOKS separate but I could find no physical way the override was cut-out JUST by use of the throttle on takeoff. Later, the MK V had a takeoff "gate" which gave a higher power (12) but less than the combat override tab (16-18). In the end Ie conceded defeat and in the A2A Spitfire, you HAVE to throw the tab to access 12. After 6 years of thinking about it, I am happy that we did. I am more convinced than ever that the takeoff concession was actually a combat concession..ie Scamble!!!


Another tidbit for you... the Boost Cut-Out Override existed WAY before 12lb/sq in was introduced. The control itself was not a combat thing... it was a means to override the boost limiter in case of failure, as the physical set up meant that failure of the limiter would choke the engine of all power. In that case, the pilot OVER-RODE the limiter to get power but on stern admonition that an ungoverned engine would deliver 18lbs/sq in and destroy itself. Caution not to use full throttle and to keep the boost gauge within suitable limits manually (6 1/4 originally) was therefore issued.
This is why the modification to allow 12 boost included drilling a hole in the control body, so that extra pressure could escape, limiting the maximum pressure to 12, not 18. Thus the pilot could use full throttle on override without fear of blowing up. (well, without MUCH fear :) )


I chuckle quietly to myself when I see arguments about when in the Battle of Britain "boost cut-out override" was introduced for the Spitfire. The answer... 1936, not BoB!!


;)


best

Darryl
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Re: Help with fast climb - can't break 15 minutes to 20,000

Post by Styggron »

Killratio wrote:
Styggron wrote:
1 This will allow me to swap props then ?

2 I have to say I am tempted to put on Accu-sim just to see. I am not keen on it because I found the accu-sim on J3 SO incredibly disappointing (AI Heidi does not do much) and plus it might make flying the Spitfire ultra hard.

3 People have told me I can simply uninstall the whole spit and just reinstall and second time round do not put on accu-sim.

1. Yes.

2. The difference is three fold between the Spitfire and the Cub Accu-sims. First, the Cub is an incredibly simple aeroplane...so there is not a lot of complex system modelling..there aren't those systems in the real aircraft!! It is stick and rudder WYSIWYG flying. Second and related.. the Cub has the most incredibly accurate and delicate flight modelling (dare I say slightly better than the Spitfire !!) but the average sim pilot will not appreciate the full depth of it because they lack the real world experience. The sim pilots I've talked to DO however love it. Third and last...Heidi. She is a nice bit of early AI, I guess, but personally I don't fly with her. (something to do with having enough screaming women in my life, I suspect :) ). If she is all that Accu-sim is judged by on the Cub, then I would agree that for ME she wouldn't justify it, certainly. But I love flying the Accu-sim Cub because in so many ways, it is the closest I have ever come to "real" flying on the computer.

Now with the Spitfire, Accu-sim runs so much deeper because there are so many more systems in that more advanced aeroplane. Your actions while flying have reasonably immediate and observable consequences. You know Accu-sim is there and working, it is in your face. Getting to 20,000ft in a great time is a great achievement and very satisfying. But knowing that one way or another you will get there, no matter what you do, detracts from the experience for me. Flying by the numbers and watching exactly how far I can push the limits is vastly better. Knowing that one mistake could end in a dangerously hot/damaged engine and the end of the attempt, thereby wasting half an hour of my, these days, severely limited stick time, is 3/4 of the fun. People make BIG statements about Accu-sim damage, both positive and negative but for me it isn't about damage, because I hardly ever see it. Wear over time, yes. More wear if I am less careful, yes. But I can't remember the last time I accidentally caught an engine on fire, or damaged something on landing (except on wholly inappropriate jungle strips in PNG). You said, I believe, that you enjoyed my story about the little jaunt where I got caught in low cloud in "The Jungles" area and had to fight to survive? But if you went back to that story in a "non accusim" environment, it would read. "Kagi disappeared in cloud and made a bad decision on an alternative, which also disappeared, so firewalled the throttle and climbed up through cloud and back to Kokoda. Same Model, same look, and with Accu-feel, much the same FEEL...but a totally different experience without 20 minutes of a "virtually" terrifying fight for survival. Actually, of all my Accu-sim flying experiences, i think that one best encapsulates the whole value of Accu-sim.

3. Yes.

Best regards

D
Hello Killratio,
100% re the Cub which is why I completely regret getting the cub. A BIG mistake on my part. I really only wanted it for Heidi and Sea Plane physics but they do not appear any different from accu-feel with a default sea plane :( so I copped a double whammy in disappointment I fear. I don't wish to repeat the same mistake. I hope future planes don't have forced accu-sim but it is probably going that way sadly. There are some exceptions like the B377 but I got that at 50% off else I wouldn't have that either.

From what you say though, accu-feel version would have been enough for me.

Although I'd rather not, I'll put on accu-sim and have a look. It would be silly for me not to even try as accu-sim installer is just sitting there as I purchased it with the plane of course. I can always remove the Spitfire and accu-sim and just re install with just base model.
Last edited by Styggron on 07 Nov 2016, 15:01, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Help with fast climb - can't break 15 minutes to 20,000

Post by Piper_EEWL »

Killratio wrote: Minimum for "opening up" not take off. So idle until temps are 15C oil, 60C Rad and THEN you can do your runup checks, taxi etc. For the Spitfire I it is even worse... 70C!!

You're right. On a real scramble the limits would be monitored but not strictly adhered to. Having said that, a Spitfire that arrives at 20,000ft with it's radiator at 140C and having already boiled off a heap of fluid, is not going to do well in a "00 to the wall" dogfight. In fact, to quote my dear old Irish Grandmother, they are about as much good as a one legged man at an a$$ kicking contest. Normally, the Ack Emmas (erks) would have run up the engine in advance and done most of the preflight checks. That heated the oil (which cools down and heats up much more slowly than the Rad) and gave the pilots a clear run to check minima and go while the rad stayed at a half reasonable temp. .

12 lbs/sq in ...what, did you think we just put that red tab on the Throttle body for Rob to show off his 3d rendering skills?? :) :)

12 is the maximum boost for takeoff on 100 octane fuel. One thing that no modern operator knew about, as they would NEVER use it, nor could I, to my great shame and after considerable scouring of drawings, manuals etc etc etc, find info about, was exactly HOW the takeoff concession was physically "gained". The Red Tab was safety wired and it is implied, in wartime, only used in Combat Emergency. The takeoff concession LOOKS separate but I could find no physical way the override was cut-out JUST by use of the throttle on takeoff. Later, the MK V had a takeoff "gate" which gave a higher power (12) but less than the combat override tab (16-18). In the end Ie conceded defeat and in the A2A Spitfire, you HAVE to throw the tab to access 12. After 6 years of thinking about it, I am happy that we did. I am more convinced than ever that the takeoff concession was actually a combat concession..ie Scamble!!!


Another tidbit for you... the Boost Cut-Out Override existed WAY before 12lb/sq in was introduced. The control itself was not a combat thing... it was a means to override the boost limiter in case of failure, as the physical set up meant that failure of the limiter would choke the engine of all power. In that case, the pilot OVER-RODE the limiter to get power but on stern admonition that an ungoverned engine would deliver 18lbs/sq in and destroy itself. Caution not to use full throttle and to keep the boost gauge within suitable limits manually (6 1/4 originally) was therefore issued.
This is why the modification to allow 12 boost included drilling a hole in the control body, so that extra pressure could escape, limiting the maximum pressure to 12, not 18. Thus the pilot could use full throttle on override without fear of blowing up. (well, without MUCH fear :) )


I chuckle quietly to myself when I see arguments about when in the Battle of Britain "boost cut-out override" was introduced for the Spitfire. The answer... 1936, not BoB!!
Wow very interesting. Thanks for all that intel. I never dared to flick that red tab down. I guess I'm to afraid to ruin my precious Merlin :wink: I'll definetly give it a try though. I might backup my .dat file though :D

So you're saying that the engines were kept warm somewhat during the day back then? I guess that makes sense since one doesn't really have time to let the engine warm up when the enemy is approaching.
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Re: Help with fast climb - can't break 15 minutes to 20,000

Post by Styggron »

Piper_EEWL wrote:
Killratio wrote: Minimum for "opening up" not take off. So idle until temps are 15C oil, 60C Rad and THEN you can do your runup checks, taxi etc. For the Spitfire I it is even worse... 70C!!

You're right. On a real scramble the limits would be monitored but not strictly adhered to. Having said that, a Spitfire that arrives at 20,000ft with it's radiator at 140C and having already boiled off a heap of fluid, is not going to do well in a "00 to the wall" dogfight. In fact, to quote my dear old Irish Grandmother, they are about as much good as a one legged man at an a$$ kicking contest. Normally, the Ack Emmas (erks) would have run up the engine in advance and done most of the preflight checks. That heated the oil (which cools down and heats up much more slowly than the Rad) and gave the pilots a clear run to check minima and go while the rad stayed at a half reasonable temp. .

12 lbs/sq in ...what, did you think we just put that red tab on the Throttle body for Rob to show off his 3d rendering skills?? :) :)

12 is the maximum boost for takeoff on 100 octane fuel. One thing that no modern operator knew about, as they would NEVER use it, nor could I, to my great shame and after considerable scouring of drawings, manuals etc etc etc, find info about, was exactly HOW the takeoff concession was physically "gained". The Red Tab was safety wired and it is implied, in wartime, only used in Combat Emergency. The takeoff concession LOOKS separate but I could find no physical way the override was cut-out JUST by use of the throttle on takeoff. Later, the MK V had a takeoff "gate" which gave a higher power (12) but less than the combat override tab (16-18). In the end Ie conceded defeat and in the A2A Spitfire, you HAVE to throw the tab to access 12. After 6 years of thinking about it, I am happy that we did. I am more convinced than ever that the takeoff concession was actually a combat concession..ie Scamble!!!


Another tidbit for you... the Boost Cut-Out Override existed WAY before 12lb/sq in was introduced. The control itself was not a combat thing... it was a means to override the boost limiter in case of failure, as the physical set up meant that failure of the limiter would choke the engine of all power. In that case, the pilot OVER-RODE the limiter to get power but on stern admonition that an ungoverned engine would deliver 18lbs/sq in and destroy itself. Caution not to use full throttle and to keep the boost gauge within suitable limits manually (6 1/4 originally) was therefore issued.
This is why the modification to allow 12 boost included drilling a hole in the control body, so that extra pressure could escape, limiting the maximum pressure to 12, not 18. Thus the pilot could use full throttle on override without fear of blowing up. (well, without MUCH fear :) )


I chuckle quietly to myself when I see arguments about when in the Battle of Britain "boost cut-out override" was introduced for the Spitfire. The answer... 1936, not BoB!!
Wow very interesting. Thanks for all that intel. I never dared to flick that red tab down. I guess I'm to afraid to ruin my precious Merlin :wink: I'll definetly give it a try though. I might backup my .dat file though :D

So you're saying that the engines were kept warm somewhat during the day back then? I guess that makes sense since one doesn't really have time to let the engine warm up when the enemy is approaching.
Hello Piper,
I saw you wrote backing up your dat file, is this the plane's "state" ? so if you did something you wanted to be removed from the "record" you just restore your old .dat file ? These are in the A2A plane directory yes ?

Thank you in advance :)
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Re: Help with fast climb - can't break 15 minutes to 20,000

Post by Piper_EEWL »

Styggron wrote: Hello Piper,
I saw you wrote backing up your dat file, is this the plane's "state" ? so if you did something you wanted to be removed from the "record" you just restore your old .dat file ? These are in the A2A plane directory yes ?
Yes exactly right. The .dat file is where the information about the aircraft state of the the Accusim birds is stored in.

The files can be found in

...documents/A2A/FSX(or P3D)/NAME OF THE AIRCRAFT

There are naturally 5 backups which will be overwritten everytime you load the aircraft. So if you want to save one state you can make a backup of the current .dat file and "reinstall" it later.

Hope this helps
B377&COTS, J3 Cub, B-17G, Spitfire, P-40, P-51D, C172, C182, Pa28, Pa24, T-6 Texan, L-049&COTS, Bonanza V35B

flapman
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Re: Help with fast climb - can't break 15 minutes to 20,000

Post by flapman »

Looking through my program list, I see that I have separate uninstallers for the Spitfire, and the Spitfire accusim module. Perhaps when you decide to revert to the standard Spitfire, you can uninstall just the Accusim module, and that will be good enough? I don't know I've never tried it....

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Killratio
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Re: Help with fast climb - can't break 15 minutes to 20,000

Post by Killratio »

You could try but I wouldn't recommend it. There is no guarantee that everything Accusim installs will be removed. You don't need the aircraft "calling" files that are no longer there.

Safest to uninstall both, delete docs folder "dat" files and reinstall just the Spitfire. That is what i've always done in testing..to avoid odd results.

regards

Darryl
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