Approach charts question.

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Styggron
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Approach charts question.

Post by Styggron »

Hello again,

Deciding it's time to stop playing games while flying the B377 and it's time to stop guessing what my altitude at a distance should be to land properly, I have some questions.

I am flying the B377 and I fly between EGPE and EGPH.
My questions relate to EGPH as this is a larger airport and I should be able to apply the same information people give me here to the smaller airport.

Background for first question
1. If I go to the airport charts for EGPH here http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/in ... d=111.html
2. We want to land at runway 24
3. There are 4 maps
4. The first is for ILS, the second is LOC/DME, the third is SRA/RTR and the 4th NDB(L) DME

First question:
1. I understand the first chart is for ILS but what are the other and how do they work ? When should I be looking at them ?


Background for second question
1. If I look at the ILS chart for runway 24 http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic ... -03-06.pdf under the map there is an approach chart.

Second set of questions
1. This chart has a label showing D0,D4,D9,D12. These are obviously distances. What is it measured in ? Is it in nautical miles ? So at D12 I should be at 3000 feet ? ie 12 nautical miles ?
2. How do I know how far away I am ? I need to tune the DME information yes ? Is this information on the chart ? ie the frequency ? is it the same as when tuned into the ILS freq ? ie 108.9 ?
3. What does DME I-TH mean on the chart that shows the D0, D1, D2 etc. I know DME is distance measuring equipment but what is I-TH ?


PS: I realise I should also be using ATC because surely they guide you in yes if you file a flight plan yes ? I just want to do this without ATC and learn how to do the charts. I am tired of guessing and being too high or too low. Landings are hard enough as it is with the B377 without me guessing.

Thank you in advance everyone :)
Accufeel V2, C172 , B377+L049+COTS, B17G, Piper Cub,Commanche,Cherrokee,Spitfire,Bonanza, P47,P40,both Mustangs
Aircraft Factory Avro Anson, Albatros DIII,Heinkel He-219, F4U Corsair, P51H Mustang, Avro 504, BF109
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Jacques
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Re: Approach charts question.

Post by Jacques »

Hi Styggron,

I really suggest you take a look at this video on youtube. It does a pretty good job of taking the mystery out of the charts! https://youtu.be/CderHSd3gvQ

Second set of questions first, and if I don't know, I'll tell you!

1. Yes, distances are in NM. When it says D4 I-TH, the I-TH refers to the ILS identifier for Rwy 24 (the localizer is called I-TH and is identified by the morse code for those three letters.) At D12 you should be at 3000'. That little "x" marks the spot where the approach actually begins, the intersection between your course heading to the runway and where the glideslope intersects that course. If you've tuned to the correct frequency and are on the correct path, the needles of your course direction indicator will be centered at that point, The vertical needle drifts left or right, depending on whether you are left or right of the approach course. The horizontal needle drifts up or down, depending on whether you are above the glideslope or below the glideslope.

2. On your chart in the 377, on the left side (I think) there is a box marked "ring". Click on that and on your map there will be a series of rings radiating from you in the center. You can adjust the scale by further clicking the same box, but you should be at a lower scale when you are on approach. That is how you estimate distances.

3. I think I answered this already. Localizers (for approaches), NDBs, VORs all have a Three letter identifier. Rwy 24 localizer is I-TH. The NDB is EDN, they all self-identify by broadcasting morse code corresponding to their identiifer letters. You can use this feature from your radio panel, the five switches between each radio marked NDB, VOR/ILS, MARKER, VOR/ILS, NDB. Activate the switch and after a short wait the morse code will be broadcast. At the bottom of each chart, there is a detailed explanation of how to do the approach, which is pretty useful.

Anyway, that is simply too much informatin for now. Please weigh in with corrections or clarifications. I'm sure there are many! :D

watch the video!

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DC3
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Re: Approach charts question.

Post by DC3 »

Styggron wrote:Deciding it's time to stop playing games while flying the B377 and it's time to stop guessing what my altitude at a distance should be to land properly, I have some questions.
Good idea to use ILS to help
Styggron wrote:3. There are 4 maps
4. The first is for ILS, the second is LOC/DME, the third is SRA/RTR and the 4th NDB(L) DME
First question:
1. I understand the first chart is for ILS but what are the other and how do they work ? When should I be looking at them ?
The other charts are for other methods used to approach the airport. If you aircraft is not equiped with an ILS but it does have an NDB receiver you could use the NDB approach method. If you don't have a glideslope receiver but you do have a Localizer receiver and DME equipment you could use the LOC/DME approach. I am not sure what the SRA/RTR approach is, maybe it uses RNAV or some type of equipment like that. For you the ILS is a good one to concentrate on to begin with.
Styggron wrote:Background for second question
1. If I look at the ILS chart for runway 24 http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic ... -03-06.pdf under the map there is an approach chart.

Second set of questions
1. This chart has a label showing D0,D4,D9,D12. These are obviously distances. What is it measured in ? Is it in nautical miles ? So at D12 I should be at 3000 feet ? ie 12 nautical miles ?
Generally you should intercept the LOCALIZER, i.e. align with the runway center line, and then fly that course until you intercept the glideslope. Intercepting the glideslope means you will have to reduce power, push the nose down, or perform some other action to start descending towards the airport. You should also be at a speed where you can start lowering flaps and maybe lower your gear also. Technically it might be a little early to do these things but for learning purposes the earlier the setup and stabilization the better.
Styggron wrote: I just want to do this without ATC and learn how to do the charts.
Good idea. Good luck.

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Styggron
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Re: Approach charts question.

Post by Styggron »

Jacques wrote:Hi Styggron,

I really suggest you take a look at this video on youtube. It does a pretty good job of taking the mystery out of the charts! https://youtu.be/CderHSd3gvQ

Second set of questions first, and if I don't know, I'll tell you!

1. Yes, distances are in NM. When it says D4 I-TH, the I-TH refers to the ILS identifier for Rwy 24 (the localizer is called I-TH and is identified by the morse code for those three letters.) At D12 you should be at 3000'. That little "x" marks the spot where the approach actually begins, the intersection between your course heading to the runway and where the glideslope intersects that course. If you've tuned to the correct frequency and are on the correct path, the needles of your course direction indicator will be centered at that point, The vertical needle drifts left or right, depending on whether you are left or right of the approach course. The horizontal needle drifts up or down, depending on whether you are above the glideslope or below the glideslope.

2. On your chart in the 377, on the left side (I think) there is a box marked "ring". Click on that and on your map there will be a series of rings radiating from you in the center. You can adjust the scale by further clicking the same box, but you should be at a lower scale when you are on approach. That is how you estimate distances.

3. I think I answered this already. Localizers (for approaches), NDBs, VORs all have a Three letter identifier. Rwy 24 localizer is I-TH. The NDB is EDN, they all self-identify by broadcasting morse code corresponding to their identiifer letters. You can use this feature from your radio panel, the five switches between each radio marked NDB, VOR/ILS, MARKER, VOR/ILS, NDB. Activate the switch and after a short wait the morse code will be broadcast. At the bottom of each chart, there is a detailed explanation of how to do the approach, which is pretty useful.

Anyway, that is simply too much informatin for now. Please weigh in with corrections or clarifications. I'm sure there are many! :D

watch the video!
Hello Jacques,
Yes I know Doofer911's videos everything I know comes from him :)
Ok so those D numbers are in NM ok gotcha thanks for that.

Thanks for that, at least now I can try to use that to ensure the B377 is at a god height when I am at that distance. Wish me luck :)
Accufeel V2, C172 , B377+L049+COTS, B17G, Piper Cub,Commanche,Cherrokee,Spitfire,Bonanza, P47,P40,both Mustangs
Aircraft Factory Avro Anson, Albatros DIII,Heinkel He-219, F4U Corsair, P51H Mustang, Avro 504, BF109
Watch my incompetent flying Twitch

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Styggron
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Re: Approach charts question.

Post by Styggron »

DC3 wrote:
Styggron wrote:Deciding it's time to stop playing games while flying the B377 and it's time to stop guessing what my altitude at a distance should be to land properly, I have some questions.
Good idea to use ILS to help
Styggron wrote:3. There are 4 maps
4. The first is for ILS, the second is LOC/DME, the third is SRA/RTR and the 4th NDB(L) DME
First question:
1. I understand the first chart is for ILS but what are the other and how do they work ? When should I be looking at them ?
The other charts are for other methods used to approach the airport. If you aircraft is not equiped with an ILS but it does have an NDB receiver you could use the NDB approach method. If you don't have a glideslope receiver but you do have a Localizer receiver and DME equipment you could use the LOC/DME approach. I am not sure what the SRA/RTR approach is, maybe it uses RNAV or some type of equipment like that. For you the ILS is a good one to concentrate on to begin with.
Styggron wrote:Background for second question
1. If I look at the ILS chart for runway 24 http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic ... -03-06.pdf under the map there is an approach chart.

Second set of questions
1. This chart has a label showing D0,D4,D9,D12. These are obviously distances. What is it measured in ? Is it in nautical miles ? So at D12 I should be at 3000 feet ? ie 12 nautical miles ?
Generally you should intercept the LOCALIZER, i.e. align with the runway center line, and then fly that course until you intercept the glideslope. Intercepting the glideslope means you will have to reduce power, push the nose down, or perform some other action to start descending towards the airport. You should also be at a speed where you can start lowering flaps and maybe lower your gear also. Technically it might be a little early to do these things but for learning purposes the earlier the setup and stabilization the better.
Styggron wrote: I just want to do this without ATC and learn how to do the charts.
Good idea. Good luck.
Thank you for that. SAdly the B377 does not have an ILS system the AP is extremely basic so I have to do it all manually. I do have a VOR with GS indicator etc so that's something :)

Thank you for letting me know about those other charts, so I can use NDB as well to try to guide me in gotcha.
Accufeel V2, C172 , B377+L049+COTS, B17G, Piper Cub,Commanche,Cherrokee,Spitfire,Bonanza, P47,P40,both Mustangs
Aircraft Factory Avro Anson, Albatros DIII,Heinkel He-219, F4U Corsair, P51H Mustang, Avro 504, BF109
Watch my incompetent flying Twitch

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Great Ozzie
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Re: Approach charts question.

Post by Great Ozzie »

Styggron wrote:Ok so those D numbers are in NM ok gotcha thanks for that.
If you go to the UK's NATS General Information - Index and download the following pdfs:

• GEN 2.1 Measuring System...
• GEN 2.2 Abbreviations Used...
• GEN 2.3 Chart Symbols

I think you would find that useful in answering some of your questions.

-Rob
Rob Osborne
Flight Instructor - CFI, CFII, MEI, MEII
A & P Mechanic


FAASTeam - Safer Skies Through Education
Professionalism in aviation is the pursuit of excellence through discipline, ethical behavior and continuous improvement. NBAA

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Styggron
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Re: Approach charts question.

Post by Styggron »

Great Ozzie wrote:
Styggron wrote:Ok so those D numbers are in NM ok gotcha thanks for that.
If you go to the UK's NATS General Information - Index and download the following pdfs:

• GEN 2.1 Measuring System...
• GEN 2.2 Abbreviations Used...
• GEN 2.3 Chart Symbols

I think you would find that useful in answering some of your questions.

-Rob
Hi Rob,
Thanks for that. The chart symbol one is excellent.
At least I was right about the "D" markers so at least I can read that EGPE chart better now and with the chart symbols I can decipher a little more

Baby steps

:)
Accufeel V2, C172 , B377+L049+COTS, B17G, Piper Cub,Commanche,Cherrokee,Spitfire,Bonanza, P47,P40,both Mustangs
Aircraft Factory Avro Anson, Albatros DIII,Heinkel He-219, F4U Corsair, P51H Mustang, Avro 504, BF109
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DC3
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Posts: 695
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Re: Approach charts question.

Post by DC3 »

Styggron wrote:
DC3 wrote:
Styggron wrote:Deciding it's time to stop playing games while flying the B377 and it's time to stop guessing what my altitude at a distance should be to land properly, I have some questions.
Good idea to use ILS to help
Styggron wrote:3. There are 4 maps
4. The first is for ILS, the second is LOC/DME, the third is SRA/RTR and the 4th NDB(L) DME
First question:
1. I understand the first chart is for ILS but what are the other and how do they work ? When should I be looking at them ?
The other charts are for other methods used to approach the airport. If you aircraft is not equiped with an ILS but it does have an NDB receiver you could use the NDB approach method. If you don't have a glideslope receiver but you do have a Localizer receiver and DME equipment you could use the LOC/DME approach. I am not sure what the SRA/RTR approach is, maybe it uses RNAV or some type of equipment like that. For you the ILS is a good one to concentrate on to begin with.
Styggron wrote:Background for second question
1. If I look at the ILS chart for runway 24 http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic ... -03-06.pdf under the map there is an approach chart.

Second set of questions
1. This chart has a label showing D0,D4,D9,D12. These are obviously distances. What is it measured in ? Is it in nautical miles ? So at D12 I should be at 3000 feet ? ie 12 nautical miles ?
Generally you should intercept the LOCALIZER, i.e. align with the runway center line, and then fly that course until you intercept the glideslope. Intercepting the glideslope means you will have to reduce power, push the nose down, or perform some other action to start descending towards the airport. You should also be at a speed where you can start lowering flaps and maybe lower your gear also. Technically it might be a little early to do these things but for learning purposes the earlier the setup and stabilization the better.
Styggron wrote: I just want to do this without ATC and learn how to do the charts.
Good idea. Good luck.
Thank you for that. SAdly the B377 does not have an ILS system the AP is extremely basic so I have to do it all manually. I do have a VOR with GS indicator etc so that's something :)

Thank you for letting me know about those other charts, so I can use NDB as well to try to guide me in gotcha.
Yeah, tune VOR1 to the ILS frequency and the localizer and glideslope will be active on the guage.

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Styggron
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Re: Approach charts question.

Post by Styggron »

DC3 wrote:
Yeah, tune VOR1 to the ILS frequency and the localizer and glideslope will be active on the guage.
Yep this I have always done. I wish there was an AP that would align me.
Accufeel V2, C172 , B377+L049+COTS, B17G, Piper Cub,Commanche,Cherrokee,Spitfire,Bonanza, P47,P40,both Mustangs
Aircraft Factory Avro Anson, Albatros DIII,Heinkel He-219, F4U Corsair, P51H Mustang, Avro 504, BF109
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rosariomanzo
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Re: Approach charts question.

Post by rosariomanzo »

Styggron wrote: Yep this I have always done. I wish there was an AP that would align me.
CTRL+A, if you want to cheat. It is the standard FSX key assignment to enable APP on autopilot.
Ros

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Styggron
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Re: Approach charts question.

Post by Styggron »

rosariomanzo wrote:
Styggron wrote: Yep this I have always done. I wish there was an AP that would align me.
CTRL+A, if you want to cheat. It is the standard FSX key assignment to enable APP on autopilot.
It's not that simple, not only do you want AP but you want APR mode so the AP can control alignment and altitude. I don't think that will work on the A2A B377

CTRL+A is APR mode
Z is AP on and off

I would try but I thought it was all disabled on the B377
Accufeel V2, C172 , B377+L049+COTS, B17G, Piper Cub,Commanche,Cherrokee,Spitfire,Bonanza, P47,P40,both Mustangs
Aircraft Factory Avro Anson, Albatros DIII,Heinkel He-219, F4U Corsair, P51H Mustang, Avro 504, BF109
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rosariomanzo
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Re: Approach charts question.

Post by rosariomanzo »

It is that simple indeed. Ctrl+a is like pressing appr button. Of course, autopilot has to be in NAV mode, not GPS.

Inviato dal mio SM-J500FN utilizzando Tapatalk
Ros

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Styggron
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Re: Approach charts question.

Post by Styggron »

rosariomanzo wrote:It is that simple indeed. Ctrl+a is like pressing appr button. Of course, autopilot has to be in NAV mode, not GPS.

Inviato dal mio SM-J500FN utilizzando Tapatalk
There is no nav/gps mode in the B377 though. :) The B377 as you know is a period aircraft.
I will see if these shortcuts still work though. Might be a way to get aligned for landings even though I'm not really supposed to do this on this period aircraft.

If this does indeed work, then I *might* modify the config panel (much to the dismay of B377 pilots) so the fsx default GPS is available. There is a thread on how to do this on here. :) I am getting far better with the B377 so I'll keep at it for the present.
Accufeel V2, C172 , B377+L049+COTS, B17G, Piper Cub,Commanche,Cherrokee,Spitfire,Bonanza, P47,P40,both Mustangs
Aircraft Factory Avro Anson, Albatros DIII,Heinkel He-219, F4U Corsair, P51H Mustang, Avro 504, BF109
Watch my incompetent flying Twitch

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DC3
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Re: Approach charts question.

Post by DC3 »

Remember the feeling you'll have when you actually get it. And, you will get it. Each time you will get better. :)

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rosariomanzo
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Re: Approach charts question.

Post by rosariomanzo »

Styggron wrote:
There is no nav/gps mode in the B377 though. :) The B377 as you know is a period aircraft.
you are stating the obvious, but we are talking about cheating and NAV/GPS switch can be assigned to a keyboard command like all other autopilot commands. And they will all work in the Strat.
Check your keyboard commands in FSX first.

Inviato dal mio SM-J500FN utilizzando Tapatalk
Ros

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