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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:25 am 
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Hi

First of all, I would like to say thank you to A2A Simulations for bringing me closer to fly a real plane! It's my childhood dream to become an aviator, but my situation isn't going to give me such an opportunity. Anyway, straight to the point...

I thought I've mastered the art of landing in small FSX default aircraft like C172, C182, Mooney and etc. then came for the first time this A2A's C172 - it took me time to adjust, I often get ballooned on my approach, and on touch down it's like someone kicked my butt and all instruments are dancing.

I have kept practicing using touch and go and soon after I have adjusted my method of using the proper airspeed and the proper flair. I have slowly learned the technique of "kissing" the pavement, but from time to time (or most of the time) I still get a some mild shaking with mild screech of metal.

This mild shaking of instrument panel is acceptable? How often pilots in real world get this?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:32 am 
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rjbinghay wrote:
Hi

First of all, I would like to say thank you to A2A Simulations for bringing me closer to fly a real plane! It's my childhood dream to become an aviator, but my situation isn't going to give me such an opportunity. Anyway, straight to the point...

I thought I've mastered the art of landing in small FSX default aircraft like C172, C182, Mooney and etc. then came for the first time this A2A's C172 - it took me time to adjust, I often get ballooned on my approach, and on touch down it's like someone kicked my butt and all instruments are dancing.

I have kept practicing using touch and go and soon after I have adjusted my method of using the proper airspeed and the proper flair. I have slowly learned the technique of "kissing" the pavement, but from time to time (or most of the time) I still get a some mild shaking with mild screech of metal.

This mild shaking of instrument panel is acceptable? How often pilots in real world get this?



It's there in the real airplane, just not as noticable due to pilot concentration outside the aircraft over the nose at touchdown.
In the simulation, A2A, realizing that there is no physical interaction with the simulated aircraft, uses sound and visuals to replicate what you as the pilot would be "feeling" physically were you in the actual airplane.
Dudley Henriques


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:49 pm 
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DHenriquesA2A wrote:
It's there in the real airplane, just not as noticable due to pilot concentration outside the aircraft over the nose at touchdown.
In the simulation, A2A, realizing that there is no physical interaction with the simulated aircraft, uses sound and visuals to replicate what you as the pilot would be "feeling" physically were you in the actual airplane.
Dudley Henriques



Thanks! Then I can breath peacefully... :)


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:41 am 
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How do you time your flare?

It's the part where I have the most trouble with... :/

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:40 pm 
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Not sure which plane your having trouble with but I base it on my airspeed if your slow enough to not generate any more life, then you can flair without ballooning back up. I guess I flair at about 15 to 20ft but I've never really looked when landing

P.S I'm not a qualified pilot so take my advice accordingly and just keep practising your landing your get the hang of it

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:51 am 
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My mistake was that I flared too much while my speed and power still have considerable momentum. The reason I did that is because I believed that flaring would reduce the airspeed and stall my aircraft and slowly touch the pavement as what I've learned in FSX default C172.

For the default FSX C172, if I flared at an airspeed of around 45 to 50 (full flaps) below it will slowly glide down, while in A2A C172 it will balloon for just a second or two.

So I've watched YouTube videos on how people land their aircraft. They don't look like they flared their aircraft but rather level and hold the nose 5 or 10 feet above the ground until the speed drops below 40 and flare gently.

Another thing that's in my mind was that I want to touch the ground as soon as possible so as not to eat up all the runways hence, my quick and immediate nose up to reduce speed. But in YouTube observation people take their time and not afraid of using almost half of the runways.

I also think that controls also plays a huge role in a flawless landing, keyboard is much easier to flair than a joystick, and maybe it's far more easier to hold and level the nose using the gaming YOKE than keyboard.



I'm not a pilot so please tell me if I'm so much wrong. happy to hear advice :)


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:18 pm 
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Speed control on approach is the key issue. How fast you move the controls during the flare is the second issue. Attitude held while waiting for speed to bleed off is the third.

Too much energy on approach means you have to get rid of it somehow over the runway. Flare too fast and you will balloon the aircraft potentially stalling about 20 feet in the air and flopping onto the runway. Flare too slow and you hit the runway nose first and porpoise which could pull off the front torque links, drop out the nose wheel, and lead to a "bad things". Flare just right with too much speed and you use up most of the runway and may need to use the brakes hard after you touchdown - this is not too bad but it is hard on the brakes and if they fail then you slide off the far end. Flare too high with too much speed and you could end up stalling and flopping in late on the runway with a thump, and then have the issue with brakes.

If you come in with less speed, then a fast flare leads to a smaller balloon and is recoverable with a bit of power. A slow flare leads to a nose-first strike but no bouncing: still bad but far less potential for damage. A perfect flare leads to a nice landing, nose high, and no brakes used to come to a stop.

Avoid flaring 10 to 15 feet high and setting up a long slow descent with power. That will end poorly someday. Too much dithering close to the ground while slow is increasing the risk of a gust, distraction, or other problem.

Try to get the sight picture in your head of what the right height is using trial and error. But really pay attention on each landing to what the horizon looks like in a nose up flared configuration waiting to touch down. Where does the horizon intersect the edge of the window.

I set up my approach speed in CF-NZB to be about 70 knots depending on crosswind and weight of the aircraft. Might add 5 knots if close to gross. Might add 10 if gusty and/or a cross-wind. I use the sideslip technique for moderate cross wind components (10 to 15 knots) Crab technique for higher cross-winds (although only did that once and not doing it again if I can help it)

1.3 x stall speed is the rule, and the aircraft stalls at 53 knots indicated with full flap, gear down, 2500 lbs, which I know because I took it up nice and high and did a bunch of slow flight configured like that and stalled it several times - each aircraft is different. So 70 knots on short final stabilized - TRIM TRIM TRIM. Use the trim to set 70 knots and use power to adjust sink rate.

Once you start your flare transition to looking at the far end of the runway to be able to judge your height. Cut all remaining power. Smoothly and firmly (I take a count to four) get the nose up without ballooning and let the aircraft get to the right height above the runway (sight picture.) If it tries to sink don't let it by keeping the elevator back (don't balloon). Use your feet to keep it lined up down the runway. If you are too high add a bit of power to soften the impact. Once a main wheel touches the ground keep the nose up and centered until the other main touches, and then dump the flaps so it stays on the ground if a gust hits. Keep the elevator full back while braking if you need to - you probably won't need to.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:16 pm 
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Don't put too much emphasis on the flare or you will miss other important points such as speed and descent control on approach.
Assuming you have your speed and descent correct when you get to the runway the object is to fly level with the runway, not to flare.
Fly level with the runway a few feet or less above the runway, in ground effect for low wing aircraft.
Because you are flying level with no power the aircraft will slow down and go to a no flying condition.
As the plane slows and sinks pull the nose up to keep it flying level.
The act of pulling the nose up to maintain a level flying attitude will put you in a flare attitude when you touch the ground.
If you do this the plane will naturally flare without you having to concentrate on it at all.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:45 am 
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Thanks for your advice. I'll give it another try on the weekend. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:18 pm 
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In the real world, in a C172S/G I fly my full flap approaches at 60 knots, and no flaps at 70. Power to idle once I cross the threshold of the runway... the nose will have a tendency to drop a little bit... But I usually fly it down to about 5 feet off the runway (I have no real idea, because I'm looking outside) and then hold the nose off. There's no real "flare". It's just adapt a nose high attitude and hold the plane off until it settles. Usually I'm on the ground before the stall horn, but if it squeaks just a bit, that's fine too.

I will say that landing in real life is way easier than the sim.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:27 pm 
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DC3 wrote:
Don't put too much emphasis on the flare or you will miss other important points such as speed and descent control on approach.
Assuming you have your speed and descent correct when you get to the runway the object is to fly level with the runway, not to flare.
Fly level with the runway a few feet or less above the runway, in ground effect for low wing aircraft.
Because you are flying level with no power the aircraft will slow down and go to a no flying condition.
As the plane slows and sinks pull the nose up to keep it flying level.
The act of pulling the nose up to maintain a level flying attitude will put you in a flare attitude when you touch the ground.
If you do this the plane will naturally flare without you having to concentrate on it at all.


Actually "flare" is just a word really. It just describes the process of holding the airplane off the runway while the airspeed bleeds off traded for lift until the plane settles on the runway.
The word could just as well be "Hippopotamus" :-))
Dudley Henriques


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:33 am 
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I'm going to use that every time I discuss the action one performs just before touchdown from now on.

There's going to be lots of confused people as I tell them not to hippopotamus too early.

I'll see if I can get Boeing to change the autoland annunciator as well.

-stefan


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:57 am 
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shortspecialbus wrote:
I'm going to use that every time I discuss the action one performs just before touchdown from now on.

There's going to be lots of confused people as I tell them not to hippopotamus too early.

I'll see if I can get Boeing to change the autoland annunciator as well.

-stefan


Call it whatever you like. It's not the word "flare" that lands the aircraft. It's the process that word describes.
You teach the process not the word.
I think you know what was meant by the post.
Dudley Henriques


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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 3:44 pm 
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DHenriquesA2A wrote:
shortspecialbus wrote:
I'm going to use that every time I discuss the action one performs just before touchdown from now on.

There's going to be lots of confused people as I tell them not to hippopotamus too early.

I'll see if I can get Boeing to change the autoland annunciator as well.

-stefan


Call it whatever you like. It's not the word "flare" that lands the aircraft. It's the process that word describes.
You teach the process not the word.
I think you know what was meant by the post.
Dudley Henriques


I wasn't being a jerk, I thought it was hilarious!

-stefan


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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2016 3:55 pm 
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shortspecialbus wrote:
DHenriquesA2A wrote:
shortspecialbus wrote:
I'm going to use that every time I discuss the action one performs just before touchdown from now on.

There's going to be lots of confused people as I tell them not to hippopotamus too early.

I'll see if I can get Boeing to change the autoland annunciator as well.

-stefan


Call it whatever you like. It's not the word "flare" that lands the aircraft. It's the process that word describes.
You teach the process not the word.
I think you know what was meant by the post.
Dudley Henriques


I wasn't being a jerk, I thought it was hilarious!

-stefan



Whenever I post something that can be taken to be ambiguous I ALWAYS include a smiling emoticon at the end of that comment.
I won't say for sure but I believe that avoids a LOT of bad blood on public forums. :-))
Dudley Henriques


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